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DMMike
09-24-2010, 11:10 PM
Really? Not in the Consolidated List?

Charging is a limited-use combat maneuver, similar to Overrun and Bull Rush, since you must have a straight line of attack, be at least 10 feet from your enemy, and use only one attack in a round.

So granting combat bonuses (to attack and damage) with Improved Charge isn't quite as useful as Weapon Focus (+1 to all attacks) or Dodge (+1 AC, against one enemy).

Or is it? If my Improved Charge prerequisites are Power Attack and Dex 13, can I offer anything more than "no AC penalty in a charge" to someone taking the feat?

rabkala
09-24-2010, 11:48 PM
Well, you could allow ;

movement through allied sqaures
movement through difficult terrain
Extra bonuses to hit and damage
Maybe extra movement in conjunction with other feats like Spring Attack
ability to ignore readied weapons
Etc...
I think creating a feat chain that ends in an even bigger payoff might be a real good possibility. Maybe another feat something like 'pounce' for a pc given they have taken improved charge? Extra attacks... Now fighters will be lining up to take improved charge!

Utgardloki
09-25-2010, 12:45 AM
I like the idea of a charge feat that allows people taking it to use multiple attacks. Would be great for Fighters and Rangers.

Charging is a traditional way to start a battle, but I often wonder what is the point. Is the bonus to damage worth the penalty to AC, considering that you can always do damage next round, provided you don't take too much damage this round?

wizarddog
09-25-2010, 04:15 AM
Improve charge should be comparable to improve bullrush and improve overrun-allowing you to ignore attacks of opportunity from other foes when making a charge . That would make it useful. It should also be a fighter and scout bonus feat.

DMMike
09-27-2010, 12:19 AM
Excellent...

Nimble Charge:
Prereq: Power Attack, Dodge
Benefit: When you charge, you do not provoke a number of attacks of opportunity equal to your dexterity modifier. In addition, you do not incur the -2 AC penalty for charging.

Thoughts?

d-_-b
09-29-2010, 06:09 PM
I think that is way too much power in one feat, even with the prereqs.

I'd say
Nimble Charge:
Prereq: Dodge
Benefit: When you charge you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from the recipient of the charge.

This would allow a traditional TWF fighter or barbarian to charge an enemy with reach without the risk of being cut down before he/she delivered a blow. This is enough power that I would take it.

rabkala
10-01-2010, 09:07 AM
I disagree to some extent.

Since it is nimble charge and not powerful charge, I would definitely drop the power attack prerequisite for Dex13.

Charge is already a very limited attack option. I would say, do not under power the feat. To keep in line with similar feats which not only ignore the attack of opportunity but also give a +4 bonus:

Nimble Charge:
Prereq: Dex 13, Dodge
Benefit: When you charge you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from the recipient of the charge. You also gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armour class against that opponent.

DMMike
10-02-2010, 12:45 AM
Let's note that Power Attack is a prerequisite for two feats that involve approaching your enemy with force (Overrun and Bull Rush). That's why it seems like a good choice for Improved/Nimble charge. Now, both of the former feats grant some opportunity attack leeway, and grant +4s to situations that don't involve direct damage.

Heretofore, charge doesn't grant damage bonuses, except in the cases of special weapons like lances. So since Charge already affects attack rolls and armor class (two of the BIG THREE of combat), could it grant a bonus in one or more of these categories, supposing that bonus is less than +4?

For power balancing, note that Weapon Focus grants a +1 to ALL attacks with a weapon of your choice, and it isn't until 4th level, and if you're a fighter, that you can get +2 to ALL damage rolls from a feat.

d-_-b
10-02-2010, 03:44 AM
What about good old Spring Attack? -it allow you to charge an enemy and break away again without provoking AO's from the recipient. Combine it with an ability like Pounce (or an equivalent feat) that lets you deliver multiple attacks on a charge and you're set.

DMMike
10-02-2010, 12:18 PM
Spring Attack has a "I'm kind of afraid of you so I'll keep my distance" flavor. Charge says "I'm gonna pummel you, and don't care if I get hurt doing it." You could designate the charge recipient as someone to Dodge, I guess. Take Mobility to cut back on your vulnerability while Charging. And use Power Attack to convert your +2 charging attack bonus into more damage. Maybe that's why there's no Improved Charge?

rabkala
10-02-2010, 12:30 PM
Yes, power attack would be appropriate if you plan on giving a bonus to hit or damage. Actually combat expertise would probably be more suited than dodge if it is AC help you are looking for with the feat.

As RAW spring attack does not work with a charge.

Feats are made to 'break' the rules though.

Remember, some feats get better as you level such as Weapon Focus. Take my 15 level swashbuckler/dervish. He can auto tumble completely around a foe delivering 6 attacks then tumble away. Every single attack in that round is boosted by Weapon Focus.

rabkala
10-06-2010, 06:48 PM
Have you looked at these? There are more too...





Hurling Charge

Type: General, Fighter
Source: Miniatures Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786932813/realmshelps-20/)
You are trained in using thrown weapons as part of a charge attack.
Prerequisite: Quick Draw, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: If you charge an opponent, you may make a ranged attack with a thrown weapon as well as a melee attack with another weapon that you draw during the charge. You may use this feat only if you have a throwing weapon in hand at the start of your turn. Both attacks must be made at the same opponent, and both receive the bonus on attack rolls for making a charge. (If you kill the enemy you're charging with the thrown weapon, you complete the charge but don't get a melee attack.) You must also follow all the requirements of making a charge. If you have the ability to make multiple attacks on a charge, you may make only one attack in addition to the thrown weapon attack. You still take the normal -2 penalty to Armor Class for making a charge attack.
Special: A fighter may select Hurling Charge as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Bestial Charge

Type: Tactical
Source: Complete Champion (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786940344/realmshelps-20/)
You have learned to take complete advantage of the animal forms you can assume.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4, wild shape class feature.
Benefit: This feat allows the use of three tactical maneuvers, each of which requires that you attempt a charge attack in the round immediately following your shift into animal form using wild shape. If you have the Swift Wild Shape feat, you can attempt the charge in the same round as you change forms.
Pouncing Charge: You can make a full attack after you charge, as if you had the pounce ability. If the animal form you have assumed normally has the pounce ability, your bonus on attack rolls when charging increases to +3.
Striking Charge: For the purpose of this charge attack only, you gain an extra 5 feet of reach by suddenly striking forward with your head and neck. You must assume a serpentine animal form to employ this maneuver.
Twisting Charge: You can change direction during a charge, as long as you move at least 10 feet both before and after you turn. You must assume an animal form with four or more legs to employ this maneuver.
Normal: You can make only a single attack after charging, with a +2 bonus on attack rolls. You can charge only in a straight line.
Neraph Charge

Type: General
Source: Planar Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786934301/realmshelps-20/)
You master the Limbo-native neraph martial art of motion camouflage when you charge a foe.
Prerequisite: Wis 15, Knowledge (the planes) 5 ranks.
Benefit: You can charge in such a way as to fool your foe into believing that you are not moving closer, or moving closer too slowly to attack effectively. A victim of your Neraph Charge attack may nor apply its Dexterity bonus to its Armor Class. All conditions that pertain when a foe cannot apply his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class also pertain to the Neraph Charge attack, if any (for instance, a sneak attack also could be made with this attack if you can make such an attack). Once you have used a Neraph Charge attack against an enemy (regardless of the attack's success), any later attempts to use Neraph Charge against that enemy in the same encounter automatically fail. Once a foe sees the attack in action against himself, the foe can discern it for what it is for the duration of that combat.
Special: Neraph Charge has no effect against foes who can't see you.
Powerful Charge

Type: General, Fighter
Sources: Eberron Campaign Setting (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786932740/realmshelps-20/)
Miniatures Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786932813/realmshelps-20/)
Monster Manual III (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786934301/realmshelps-20/)
You can charge with extra force.
Prerequisite: Medium or larger, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you charge, if your melee attack hits, it deals an extra 1d8 points of damage (if you're Medium). For Large creatures, the extra damage is 2d6; for Huge, 3d6; for Gargantuan, 4d6; and for Colossal, 6d6.
This feat works only when you make a charge. It does not work when you're mounted, if you have the ability to make multiple attacks on a charge, you may apply this extra damage to only one of those attacks in a round.
Special: A fighter may select Powerful Charge as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Triceratop's Charge

Type: General
Source: Dragon #315
Your charge is deadly.
Prerequisite: Ka-tainted (triceratops), base attack +3.
Benefit: When you charge a foe, you may make a gore attack as a secondary natural attack in addition to the normal attack you can make during a charge. If you only attack with a gore during the charge, the gore attack is a primary attack and deals double damage.

Braced for Charge

Type: General
Sources: Dragon #331
Dungeon Compendium Vol. 1
When receiving a charge, you know how to strike where it truly hurts.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can ready an action to set any pole arm against a charge. This attack deals double damage on a successful hit against a charging character. This feat grants no bonus to weapons that already grant double damage when set against a charge.
Normal: Only specific weapons do double damage when readied against a charge.




Greater Powerful Charge Type: General, Fighter
Sources: Eberron Campaign Setting (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786932740/realmshelps-20/)
Miniatures Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786932813/realmshelps-20/)
You can charge with extra force.
Prerequisite: Medium or larger, Powerful Charge, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: As Powerful Charge, but treat yourself as one size category larger than you are. For Colossal creatures, the extra 6d6 points of damage bonus becomes 8d6.
Special: A fighter may select Greater Powerful Charge as one of his fighter bonus feats

Rhinoceros Tribe Charge Type: Regional
Source: Shining South (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786934921/realmshelps-20/)
You use the power of the rhinoceros's charge in battle.
Region: Human (the Shaar)
Clan: Rhinoceros Tribe (see Human Tribes of the Shaar, page 164 Shining South).
Benefit: When you charge, if your melee attack hits, it deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. This feat works only when you make a charge, even when you're mounted. If you have the ability to make multiple attacks on a charge, you can apply this extra damage to only one of those attacks in a round.
Dire Charge

Type: Epic
Sources: Draconomicon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786928840/realmshelps-20/)
Epic Level Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786926589/realmshelps-20/)
You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Prerequisite: Improved Initiative.
Benefit: If you charge a foe during the first round of combat (or the surprise round, if you are allowed to act in it), you can make a full attack against the opponent you charge.
Normal: Without this feat, you may only make a single attack as part of a charge.


Reckless Charge

Type: General, Fighter
Source: Miniatures Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786932813/realmshelps-20/)
You can charge with wild abandon.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you charge, before making your attack roll, you may choose to take a - penalty to Armor Class until the start of your next turn to gain a +4 bonus on your attack roll.
Special: A fighter may select Reckless Charge as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Normal: Without this feat, a charging character gains a +2 bonus on his attack roll and a -2 penalty to Armor Class until the start of his next turn.


Furious Charge

Type: Regional
Source: Player's Guide to Faerūn (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786931345/realmshelps-20/)
Your people are known for their love of battle, and they rarely waste time in meeting a foe blade-to-blade. You know how to make the most of a charge.
Prerequisite: Aarakocra (the Stormhorns), human (Cormyr, the Ride, Tethyr, or Uthgardt Tribesfolk), orc (Chessenta), or wemic (the Shaar).
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on the attack roll you make at the end of a charge.
Special: You may select this feat only as a 1st-level character. You may have only one regional feat.
Normal: A character gains a +2 bonus on the attack roll made at the end of a charge.


Cobalt Charge

Type: Incarnum
Source: Magic of Incarnum (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786937017/realmshelps-20/)
You can channel incarnum to deal devastating strikes when charging. When you make a charge attack while this feat is active, your weapon momentarily turns deep blue.
Prerequisite: Con 13.
Benefit: Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat.
You gain an insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls equal to the invested essentia on all charge attacks. Once the amount of essenria invested is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours.
You gain 1 point of essentia.

Psionic Charge Type: Psionic
Source: Expanded Psionics Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786933011/realmshelps-20/)
You can charge in a crooked line.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Speed of Thought.
Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus (see the Concentration skill description, page 37, Expanded Psionics). When you charge, you can make one turn of up to 90 degrees during your movement. All other restrictions on charges still apply; for instance, you cannot pass through a square that blocks or slows movement, or that contains a creature. You must have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn.

Shield Charge

Type: General, Fighter
Sources: Complete Warrior (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786928808/realmshelps-20/)
Defenders of the Faith (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786918403/realmshelps-20/)
You deal extra damage if you use your shield as a weapon when charging.
Prerequisite: Improved Shield Bash, base attack bonus +3.
Benefit: If you hit an opponent with your shield as part of a charge action, in addition to dealing damage normally, you may make a trip attack without provoking an attack of opportunity. If you lose, the defender does not get to try to trip you in return.
Special: A fighter may select Shield Charge as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Two-Weapon Pounce

Type: General, Fighter
Source: Player's Handbook II (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786939184/realmshelps-20/)
When you charge an opponent while wielding two weapons, you can make two quick attacks. You trade the momentum and power of the charge for the opportunity to use your second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Two Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you are making a charge and wielding weapons in both hands, you can attack with both of your weapons. If you do so, you lose the bonus on attack rolls normally granted by a charge. The -2 penalty to AC from charging still applies.
Special: A fighter can select Two-Weapon Pounce as one of his fighter bonus feats. A ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style can select Two-Weapon Pounce as long as he has a base attack bonus of +6 and it wearing light armor or no armor.
Normal: When making a charge, you get a single attack at the end of your movement.
Cometary Collision

Type: General, Fighter
Source: Player's Handbook II (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786939184/realmshelps-20/)
You are a thunderbolt of destruction on the battlefield. By carefully timing your charge, you rush forward and slam into an enemy just as he gathers the speed needed to charge you. You turn your opponent's momentum against him.
Prerequisite: Str 13, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack.
Benefit: You can ready a standard action to use this feat when an opponent charges you or any other target. At any point during your opponent's charge, you can charge him. In place of the normal charge benefits, you gain +2 on your attack roll and +4 on your damage roll. Your foe loses the benefits of charging (but nor the penalties) but can still attack you. if the target charged someone else, he can choose to instead attack you. You take the standard -2 penalty to AC for charging.
If you cannot move at least 10 feet or cannot charge due to terrain or other factors, you do nor gain this feat's benefit. In either case, you use your readied action to move but do not gain an attack.
Special: A fighter can select Cometary Collision as one of his fighter bonus feats

DMMike
10-07-2010, 02:23 AM
Wow rabkala, you're the man for your time and place!

Hurling charge is pretty cool, but for Improved Charge, I'd like to consider Powerful and Furious Charge.

The most that these require is BAB +1. One grants an extra d8 on a charge, the other, +4 to your attack roll.

So, I guess I'd feel pretty justified requiring Power Attack and +1 BAB, and granting +4 to the attack roll.

Maybe throw Dex 15 in there, and eliminate the -2 AC penalty.

nijineko
10-16-2010, 01:19 AM
i believe there was an improved hurling charge as well. and if you combine all that with a leap attack and similar. brutal throw to use str for the thrown weapon....