Amazon vs. the FLGS

[Farcaster]

Browsing the forums over at Wizards.com today, I noticed that there is a lot of angst against the massive book sellers like Amazon and Borders whom are perceived to receive preferential treatment from companies like WotC. One of the posters even went so far as to say that RPG publishers have a duty to support the local gaming store, and that got me to wondering. Do they, really? Why would we hold a publisher accountable for where their books are sold?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see all the "Friendly Local Gaming Stores," dwindle into nothingness, but at the same time, I've become an Amazon-Addict. I'm sold on the convenience--and cost savings--of buying my books online, particularly when I clearly know what I want to buy. What is interesting to me though is how vehement some people are about the virtues of buying only from local gaming shops. Do these same people oppose restaurant chains? Do they refuse to shop at Sears and scold anyone who goes there in preference of going to a mom-and-pop hardware store?

What's your take?

[Skunkape]

I'm a go for where you get the best experience/sake of convenience kind of guy. If I know what I'm going to buy, I'll often buy it online, but also make sure that I at least spend part of my gaming dollars at my local shop. I hardly ever buy gaming books from the big brick & morter bookstore chains though. I guess maybe I'm a little snobish when it comes to spending gaming money there.

I know you can sit there and look through the books, but I prefer to do that at the local shop.

But if I happen to be in a big store and there's something that I want to buy, I'll get it there. It's all for what I find the most convenient.

[vic_kidd]

Having on of my players working at Border's right now has been a blessing......he buys the books I want at 30% off.....Speel Compendium cost me $25. Next is the Magic Item Compendium for the same price. And maybe the Gargantuan Blue Dragon will get into my collection too.

[gdmcbride]

And maybe the Gargantuan Blue Dragon will get into my collection too.

The blue dragon is pretty damn sweet. He's looking down at me right now from my miniatures shelf. He definitely has that 'rip-my-throat-out-at-any-time' sort of look about him. I can't wait to use him in a game.

As far as FLGS vs. Amazon, I recently bought Pendragon 5th edition and the Great Pendragon Campaign on Amazon. Great books by the way, I can't recommend them enough.

The retail price for those books is 34.99 and 49.99 respectively. On Amazon those books are each 23.09 and 32.99. I got free shipping.

So at the FLGS I would have paid almost 92 bucks with tax. On Amazon I paid $56.08 for both with no tax. That's almost thirty six bucks difference. The only inconvenience -- I had to wait a week and a half.

If i have to pay thirty six dollars more on two books to keep my FLGS in business, that's too much.

Gary

[vic_kidd]

[quote=gdmcbride;3033]The blue dragon is pretty damn sweet. He's looking down at me right now from my miniatures shelf. He definitely has that 'rip-my-throat-out-at-any-time' sort of look about him. I can't wait to use him in a game.



i seen it at Border's....it is a must have. I got the Red Dragon for Christmas....my players keep "admiring" it

[gurusloth]

I think there's more support for FLGS from some gamers because the local store often supports a local gaming scene, and many of them may use the store as a sort of meeting ground when looking to find new gamers to play with.

[Skunkape]

I think there's more support for FLGS from some gamers because the local store often supports a local gaming scene, and many of them may use the store as a sort of meeting ground when looking to find new gamers to play with.

That's a very good point!

[Moritz]

First I would go to my buddy that found the books off the back of a truck. Then I would go to GenX Comics off 157 and 183 in HEB second. But if either option didn't have what I was looking for, then I'd go to Amazon.Com.

However, when I do buy comics, it's always at GenX Comics. Instant gratification and all that.

[fmitchell]

I think there's more support for FLGS from some gamers because the local store often supports a local gaming scene, and many of them may use the store as a sort of meeting ground when looking to find new gamers to play with.

Yes, I know, but Internet shopping not only saves money in many cases, it suits my slothful and vaguely agoraphobic nature.

Still, on a sort of principle, I'll only buy from Amazon if it's an item I don't think will be worth the money to me, admittedly a subjective assessment, and used if possible. (In the future I'll also wait until it's in stock ...I'm still waiting on GURPS Ultra-Tech ...) Other things I'll get from Noble Knight Games (http://www.nobleknight.com) or someplace I find via Froogle.

The proprietor of my FLGS admitted he only stocks major lines -- D&D, WoD, GURPS, RuneQuest, Hero, Call of Cthulhu, etc. -- because that's what he makes money on. He makes more money on family games, puzzles, and the like. Since I prefer esoteric and indie games, I only browse my FLGS once in a while, when I want to browse a mainstream supplement before I buy, or when I want to dig in the piles of old and obsolete books still on the shelves.

[ronpyatt]

What is interesting to me though is how vehement some people are about the virtues of buying only from local gaming shops. Do these same people oppose restaurant chains? Do they refuse to shop at Sears and scold anyone who goes there in preference of going to a mom-and-pop hardware store?

What's your take?

Often I get lumped into the above angst, but it's not the same for me. I prefer to shop local, but I don't think anyone else should go out of their way to do the same. I like to support local gaming shops and my community. I do refuse to shop at some big stores, but not because they're the big guys stepping on the little guys. (it's mostly cause their jerks)

Now, if only the local gaming shops would have PoD kiosks ready to print PDF downloads from RPGNow, then this world would be complete. :snoopydance:

[Dimthar]

I think the "Game Chest" may be a good example on how to survive in the new market; of course I base my comment solely in the fact that they opened a new store in Collin Creek Mall.

Some thoughts:

1) FLGS should promote and encourage gaming, play testing and player gatherings (Free Lemonade?), But they must lead this activity! Not be followers, once you are in the store and have the new game in your hands, sometimes is difficult to let it go (Saving $10USD in Amazon!? Nah! I want it now!), see Wal-Mart going into the bank business.

2) FLGS should look for other sources of income, School Tournaments and Professional Leagues may help (Buying Timeshares in the secondary market may be a good source for cheap good prizes).

3) FLGS may have other services available, like a Library with old/OOP supplements and games (maybe charge a small membership fee?).

4) And as sad as it my sound, Maybe "There can be only one!". The larger number of players/customers you control, the more chances you have to survive.

Owners of FLGS must understand clearly their market and adapt as fast as possible. They are the only ones responsible for their own future. I can not blame Amazon.

[grimwell]

I have always preferred to support my FLGS because I believe that the local scene, and the overall fate of gaming is tied to successful FLGS's being there to welcome new gamers in. People are less likely to 'find gaming' at Amazon, and more likely to do so at a well run store.

That said, the only FLGS I've found in San Diego is Games Empire, and on the surface it's a great store -- they stock the basic lines in good quantity, have extra fun/family games, and a large gaming space with lots of events. So I was happy to do my shopping there as my new base in SD.

Then I went in to buy some Horde figures, so I could join in the local game with my coworkers. I did my research on the Privateer website first, to get an idea of what I would want to buy, but went deliberately to the FLGS at lunch to pick up the mini's and support their coffers.

They were charging more than the MSRP on the website. Not the same as MSRP, but more.

Thus ended my desire to support the FLGS in SD. I don't mind paying full retail to help the local guy out in the hopes that the local gaming community will flourish. I do mind paying extra for that priveledge. So now I'm going to buy online until I find a better option.

Or open a store and crush them! ;)

[gdmcbride]

It is easy to blame Amazon for the failure of the FLGS, but for me it's not just Amazon. It is the Amazon/Ebay/Noble Knight trinity of online stores.

Amazon has most recent releases at deep discount and no shipping if you buy over $25.00 worth of product.

Ebay has almost anything if you're patient and can provide you with amazing discounts. Of course, you must always be careful. Caveat Emptor is in full effect.

Noble Knight (and other internet 'super stores' like it) has a deep backstock, discounts, exemplary customer service and fast shipping. If Amazon or Ebay fails me, they make a remarkable backup.

This trinity annihilates my FLGS in terms of price and selection. What then do stores have to do to still earn my business? What can they do to add value?

A way of meeting people? Cons, meetup.com, this board and other like it ... it's all too easy to meet gamers. I currently game in three different campaigns and between them I game with twenty different gamers. Am I typical? I know I'm not. But there are lots of resources to meet your fellow gamer if you only care to use them. Meeting people is not my problem.

Knowledgeable staff who can answer questions? Suffice to say, this is a mixed bag. Yes, there might be one or two people at the shop who are knowledgeable ... but more knowledgeable than company web pages? Than EN World? Rpg.net's RPG Index? The Miniatures Page? I'm drowning in information about the rpg and miniatures hobbies. And all this info is free online.

Browse for games? Is it really easier to browse for games at a store than to browse online? I can go to WOTC's webpage and scan the entire D&D release schedule for 2007. I can sort it by type, game world, release date. I can search the internet for reviews. I can scan through Noble Knight's store by company and product line. What gaming store even approaches these features?

Recruit new gamers? Perhaps stores do this. But most gamers I've ever met were not brought into gaming by stores. They were brought in by friends who said, "Hey, you should play D&D with us." Even if stores do recruit gamers, I have to ask, so what? I do my part to recruit gamers. When I meet a new gamer at a convention or a meetup I go out of my way to make them feel welcome. But I am not so in love with game store recruitment efforts that I feel it necessary to spend 25% to 30% more on each gaming product I buy.

Instant gratification? Here, the FLGS wins. I see a book, I flip through it, and I take it to the counter. In this one area, the FLGS is better than online. I can with one flip gauge my interest in the content, art quality, binding quality and so forth. I know the book I am going to buy is a good one and matches my expectation. Online, I have no guarantees and I do, once in the while, have to send a book back for being in poor shape. This is a hassle. That one advantage costs me a lot, 25% to 30% per book at least. Is it worth it?

What I'm saying is that the FLGS is in trouble. I know this. I have no enmity for the FLGS. I wish them well. But for me, the numbers really speak. I buy a lot of RPGs and miniatures -- hundreds of dollars per month for years. And these days I buy them almost entirely online.

Perhaps I have some regrets. I still do go to my FLGS, but there I rarely buy much. I shop and take my want list to the internet. Every once in a while I buy something either out of drooling fandom ("eek! I need this right now!") or more often out of nostalgia. But mostly I go and look through the shop and realize that I am standing in the belly of a dinosaur.

Gary

[fmitchell]

Instant gratification? Here, the FLGS wins. I see a book, I flip through it, and I take it to the counter. In this one area, the FLGS is better than online. I can with one flip gauge my interest in the content, art quality, binding quality and so forth. I know the book I am going to buy is a good one and matches my expectation. Online, I have no guarantees and I do, once in the while, have to send a book back for being in poor shape. This is a hassle. That one advantage costs me a lot, 25% to 30% per book at least. Is it worth it?

It's worth it to me, occasionally, in that if it's something on the fence about, actually looking at the book will tell me whether I really want it or not. Occasionally I've ordered a well-reviewed book online, only to leaf through it and realize most of it is pretty much useless to me. (Case in point: Grim Tales got all this good press, but when I got it I found 80% was a recap of d20 Modern. The only original bits are now available on RPGNow. Based on another thread, I've ordered The Manual of Planes, and history may repeat itself ...)

On top of that, my FLGS, the Game Chest in Valley View Mall, occasionally has some interesting antiquities, occasionally overpriced, sometimes not. For example, I found GURPS Cthulhupunk there for the original price of $22, which is now something of a collectors' item.

But yeah, what Gary said. Recently I saw a picture of a Dalek screeching "DISINTERMEDIATE! DISINTERMEDIATE!" (http://www.johnniemoore.com/blog/archives/000842.php), which is pretty much what the Internet is doing to a wide range of businesses. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, although if all retail stores close and we're suddenly at the mercy of racist pepperpots, I may change my mind.

[Dimthar]

First of all, this is not a documented opinion, I did not check how well are the finances of the company that runs "Warhammer", but as far as I can see, they have several stores all over the country, they only sell one product and still are able to survive....

What is their secret?

I am still convinced that FLGS can excel in the "Tournement Field (Mostly on board games)". If they can create a network, there is no reason why that network can not be able to obtain exclusivity for "Official Tournements" from most major brand games. Each individual store has the flexibility to run their "Regional" eliminatory, admission can even be limited to those with invitation only (How do I get one?! How?, maybe in the purchase of $50USD merchandise).

They will never beat Amazon/Ebay/etc on the price war, same as original products will never beat the pirate ones.. so they need to give some value added extra service with your purchase.

[Digital Arcanist]

Most new gamers begin because they were pulled in by friends and not the clerk at a local shop. We are the what that is going to keep RPG's alive not some little shop.

There are no gaming shops in my area, only comic book shops that keep a small selection of source books. I would much rather shop at Amazon or Borders and get twice as many books than pander to some comic book guy who treats me like dirt anyway. If I could find a place that would serve my comic needs then I would never go back to my "Friendly Local Gaming Shop."

[der_kluge]

I don't typically buy books at the FLGS, because I can't justify paying full price on something that I can get so much cheaper from Amazon. Like others, I tend to know what I want, and am happy to buy them sight-unseen from Amazon based on recommendations from friends or review sites.

What I do like to buy from the FLGS are miniatures, since I can browse the selection, and find things that I think I might need. I find Reaper's site to be too slow to do this. A lot of FLGS's sell the D&D minis individually - which is great. I've spent lots of money buying single figs which I use for my d20 game. Amazon doesn't sell them in this way.

[spotlight]

Well, what an interesting dialog! I, personally, have never shopped at Amazon, or any of the other online places. Why? Because I get enough junk mail as it is. I have had the same email address for many years and only those on sites like this know it, and only those I consider friends know who I am.
That, of course dis-cludes such folks as the IRS and other paranoia producing people and/or 'patriots'.
Now don't get me wrong, I just enjoy games and such. The FLGS just mean I can be better equiped to get information on LOCAL gamers who might also frequent such places. I do buy the occasional book, I just don't trust my card to the unknowns out there in internet land.

[Ed Zachary]

Sure Wal-mazon is cheaper, but with the local stores you get services that can't be bought. Such as the chance to meet new players, or to ask someone about a book or module that has already read it.

But to start a new edition of D&D, I'd need to buy about 20 soon to be obsolete books at $30 to $50 each.

[Skunkape]

Sure Wal-mazon is cheaper, but with the local stores you get services that can't be bought. Such as the chance to meet new players, or to ask someone about a book or module that has already read it.

Yeah, I've had a lot more good experiences at MLGS than I've had bad ones!

[Moritz]

Since I recently moved to Waxahachie, I took it upon myself to find the local game/comic store. It's in an old house (like most businesses in Wax) on the side of the main street.
I went inside and talked to the guy while buying comics. He told me his hours of operation (2pm - 7pm, tues-sat). Citing that there's no point in opening early because the kids aren't out of school and he said, "This isn't really a job."
I'm totally down with this attitude. He realizes that selling comics/games isn't his life's work and won't be making him tons of money. It's just a hobby that affords him the luxury of a little side money and helping promote nerd'dom. I applaud his approach to the Friendly Local Gaming Store.
He even has his own gaming group in there on Friday and Saturday nights, role playing or video gaming while he sells stuff in another room.

Just thought I'd share.
Moritz

[Skunkape]

"This isn't really a job."

If you can afford to do it that way, I think that's a cool way to run a FLGS!

[Moritz]

I would think that a school teacher or someone who has a job that works half a day would be a shoe-in for this type of setup.

Years ago, I had a friend that had a comic book store out in Garland. He about lost his shirt trying to keep it afloat.

So yeah, having a real job as your mainstay then selling comic crack on the side, that would be the way to roll.

[Ezrandi]

3) FLGS may have other services available, like a Library with old/OOP supplements and games (maybe charge a small membership fee?).


I LOVE this Idea!!!!
That would be SOOO cool. Heck, with my books and a small update investment I could open the library. lol

Ezrandi

[Rain_Spider_08]

For quite a while I got alot of my books at borders or barnes & noble (if B&N even carried them... ):< ) mainly due to the money I could save via coupon or B&N card and there were no real comic and games stores around. I only resort to Amazon if I truly and utterly can't find the book anywhere else. But about a week ago a comic book store opened about 10 miles from my house. I went in and the manager was so nice to me and made me feel welcome which is something amazon.com can't offer. There is something rejuvinating about going into a game store especially when the staff are so nice, the only thing that keeps me from doing all my shopping there is the fact that I can get the books cheaper at borders and B&N. But if I know for a fact the comic & games store has the book I want and the other stores don't I will go there and buy it to show some support. But it is a bit scary, I wanted to own my own comic and game store but if people don't stop mainly relying on the internet and other book stores my business will be over before it even starts..... T.T

[Ed Zachary]

There is something rejuvinating about going into a game store especially when the staff are so nice, the only thing that keeps me from doing all my shopping there is the fact that I can get the books cheaper at borders and B&N. But if I know for a fact the comic & games store has the book I want and the other stores don't I will go there and buy it to show some support. But it is a bit scary, I wanted to own my own comic and game store but if people don't stop mainly relying on the internet and other book stores my business will be over before it even starts..... T.T

The past couple of weekends I purchased around a thousand dollars worth of bushes and plants. My wife wanted to buy them at the Home Depot because they were a bit cheaper, but I insisted on buying from the local nursery because they were very helpful in giving alot of good advice.

As I avoid Sprawl-Mart, I avoid big-box stores when possible in favor of local merchants. In the same manner I buy from the game stores, because the service they provide is invaluable to the hobby. I am willing to pay extra for that.

[starfalconkd]

The closest local gaming shop to me is in NYC, a 45 minute trip by train. Amazon is far too convenient to pass up. Still, I do like browsing in actual bookstores.

[Farcaster]

If Amazon had more books that you could browse (using their interface), would you like it more then, Star?

[starfalconkd]

I just meant that I enjoy wandering around real bookstores.

[Moritz]

StarFalconkd likes the smell of books.

[starfalconkd]

That would be the smell you get in used book stores. And yes I do rather like that smell. :cool:

[Rain_Spider_08]

I like used book stores as long as the books aren't completely falling apart :D sometimes I find a real "gem in the rough" so to speak. I found my VtR books "Nomads" and "Ghouls" at halfprice books and the only damage they had was a scuffed up corner on "ghouls". Not to mention all the older WoD books I've found there :)

[Farcaster]

I have this slightly OCD-esque issue with having to keep my books in perfect condition. A broken binding, dog-eared pages, hand written notes, highlighting, anything like that drives me insane. When I read a paper back, I never open it fully, so I avoid creasing the binding.

Thus, I rarely find a used book that meet my admittedly obsessive requirements.

[Rain_Spider_08]

I have this slightly OCD-esque issue with having to keep my books in perfect condition. A broken binding, dog-eared pages, hand written notes, highlighting, anything like that drives me insane. When I read a paper back, I never open it fully, so I avoid creasing the binding.

Thus, I rarely find a used book that meet my admittedly obsessive requirements.

I'm the same way but if I only have to put up with a slightly bent corner and it's half price I'll get it as long as the damage isn't so severe, especially if it's an out of print book. However I do drive my aunt crazy when I'm buying books at a full price book store. If I so much as see a scratch on it I'll go to another store for the same book. I drive the sales associates in a book store nuts too. Every time I order a book I tell them to put down I want it in mint condition or not at all. Amazon drives me crazy because I don't get to hold the book in my hands and flip through it to make sure it's in good condition.

[starfalconkd]

I don't mind dog earing my softcover novels, but I don't like notes or highlighting. I would never want damage to my role playing books or hard cover novels.

[Farcaster]

Amazon drives me crazy because I don't get to hold the book in my hands and flip through it to make sure it's in good condition.

I've been very lucky with Amazon thus far. Of all the books I have ordered through them, only one that I can remember had any issues. And the problem in that case was that some of the binding glue had gotten on the top edges of the pages--not a major issue, but it was a pain the ass to separate the pages carefully to avoid ripping them.

[Digital Arcanist]

I'm the same way Rain Spider....if I'm going to pay nine bucks for a paperback I want it in perfect condition. I returned a special order 3 times because there were scratches and tears on the the binding.

I only look for odor and missing pages in my used books. When I only 10% of the price I'm pretty liberal with the condition.

[Dimthar]

That is worrying. And not for the expected reason. At least around here it is not flying off the shelves of the LFGS. It rather implies that the majority of sales have shifted to on line sources.

I strongly suggest everyone run down to the LFGS and buy something. Dice, minis, even a thrice cursed, pus oozing Fourth Ed book. :angel:


Well I thought about cancelling my Amazon Order of 4E and buying it at my LFGS, but unfortunately it was $57 (Amazon) vs $100 (LFGS).

After reading for a while the 4E, I think the ink is "Wyrm Tainted (oWoD/Werewolf)", suddenly I feel an urge to buy a lot of minis. =D

[MortonStromgal]

I try to buy from FLGS but frankly the older I get the more I like out of print games.

[nijineko]

i buy wherever it's cheapest and i can get more for my money. the ideal of the lfgs unfortunately falls to the wayside, in the face of getting more for what i can afford.

[agoraderek]

i buy wherever it's cheapest and i can get more for my money. the ideal of the lfgs unfortunately falls to the wayside, in the face of getting more for what i can afford.

yeah, im the same way. the local flgs refuses to come down off the price of 3x WotC and 3pp books, saying "hey, now they're 'out of print'".

told the guy, "yeah, nice attitude, ebay just got my $$$, have fun looking at that wall of books for a few years"...

[nijineko]

ours did a progressive sale. he stopped ordering any more 3e, and put everything on a 10% sale. it climbed up to 90% off by the last few weeks before 4e was released. every few weeks he upped it by 10%. got rid of almost all of his stuff around the 50% off. even the less popular books. when i wandered by on the 90% off days, he only had about 10 books left, mostly 3rd party skinny volumes. unfortunately, nothing i wanted. ^^

[agoraderek]

ours did a progressive sale. he stopped ordering any more 3e, and put everything on a 10% sale. it climbed up to 90% off by the last few weeks before 4e was released. every few weeks he upped it by 10%. got rid of almost all of his stuff around the 50% off. even the less popular books. when i wandered by on the 90% off days, he only had about 10 books left, mostly 3rd party skinny volumes. unfortunately, nothing i wanted. ^^

yeah, the conversation i had with the dude at my local happened a couple weeks before 4e. went by the other day. nothing 3x has moved from the shelves at all. i wish he would come off the price already, he has all of the 3x FR stuff in stock...

[nijineko]

maybe you could pass him along the idea.

[agoraderek]

maybe you could pass him along the idea.

nah, i've been a customer since 1989. this place still has stock from '89. guy's crazy (he makes all of his money off of rare comics, minis, dice, collectables). even though 50% of the floorspace in the store is dedicated to rpgs, he doesn't care if it moves unless he gets his price...

[nijineko]

of for goodness sake. does he even know the going rate for his rpgs?

[agoraderek]

of for goodness sake. does he even know the going rate for his rpgs?

im sure he does, he's just stubborn. he still has a bunch of the old harn suppliments, marked way up, that have, literally, been sitting there since the first day i walked in the store...

[nijineko]

wow. impressive. if i could get a wireless signal in his store, i'd be seriously tempted to find the exact same stuff he has in his store, and then buy it right in front of him for whatever cheaper price i can find it for. ^^ assuming i could find it for cheaper. and assuming that i wanted something really bad. and that i was irritated enough. ^^ that's a lot of assumptions, though... it likely wouldn't happen.

[agoraderek]

wow. impressive.

like i said, he makes money off of the comics and role playing peripherals, and the 4e and pathfinder stuff has been selling pretty well.

oh, well. like i said, he'd rather i give my $$$ to someone on ebay...

[Dimthar]

like i said, he makes money off of the comics and role playing peripherals, and the 4e and pathfinder stuff has been selling pretty well.

oh, well. like i said, he'd rather i give my $$$ to someone on ebay...

Some LFGS just never learned about cash-flow and rotation of inventory. Unsold inventory is money that is not making money. sometimes is cheaper to break even (and in some cases to loose a little) than keep that inventory forever. Even donating to the local library can make sense if you get a tax deduction for it.

LFGS need to keep track how old their inventory is and have "special sales" on those items who don't seem to go away.

If they believe OOP product is now a "collectors item" they should have an e-bay store and sold it there ASAP. Unless they consider their business as an antiquities shop!

A lot of people that liked 4E wills sell some of its private collections, and a lot of their books are in a very very good condition. Mine were.

.

[Mead]

First of all, this is not a documented opinion, I did not check how well are the finances of the company that runs "Warhammer", but as far as I can see, they have several stores all over the country, they only sell one product and still are able to survive....

What is their secret?



If Games Workshop finds out you've been selling their product at anything more than a token discount, they kick your ass to the curb and refuse to sell you any more product.

Thus their B&M stores don't have to worry about being severely undercut by internet stores. Plus they have a system that promotes regularly scheduled tourneys and events, which bring in the wallets.