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tesral
07-06-2010, 01:35 PM
Below is my law outline. I use this format to determine the basic laws of a given area. Everything from a village to an empire. The Atlas of Law (http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com/fantasy/fantpdf/Atlas%20of%20Law.pdf)shows it in use. (One not safe for work picture, PDF format)

Law outline
Statute -- Penalty -- Social View
Criminal
Murder
Assault
Battery
Sexual Assault
Theft
Fraud
Identity (Forgery)
Real Property
Trespass
Damage or Destruction of
Moral (Blue Laws)
Corruption (Bribes, official lawbreaking)
Civil Obedience
Treason

Civil
Marriage
Inheritance
Property rights
Personal Rights
Slavery, indentured servitude
Trade
Contract

magic-rhyme
07-07-2010, 03:25 PM
Below is my law outline.

This is pretty good!

I notice a section for definition and subdivisions is missing from both the Criminal section and the Civil section.

For a criminal example, the definition of "murder" varies considerably across time and culture, and in the United States it is subdivided into both murder and homicide, with different degrees of murder and therefore different legal and social punishments. Similarly, "treason" has had many different definitions -- who can forget the sedition act in the 1930s in which it was considered "treason" to publically question any decision made by the Federal government?

For a civil example, the definition of "marriage" has varied considerably as well; the United States currently is grappling with whether or not to acknowledge same-sex marriage in law, but the laws against polygamy remain on the books with little protest.

There isn't really that much difference between modern American debt culture and indentured servitude, is there?

Have you played with the idea of cultures where activities taken for granted as criminal or as subject to civil law don't exist? For example, many historical cultures have never had notions of "sexual assault" or "identity theft" or "property rights" or even "trespass" as modern Americans understand the term. In Ancient Rome, there was no shame to being a slave, and many starving people actively sought to become a slave in a household as a preferred alternative to dying on the streets.

tesral
07-07-2010, 10:04 PM
I have actually.

The varied definitions of murder are a fairly modern thing. If it matters it is mentioned in the national write up. The outline is just that; a suggested structure to be simplified or complicated as required. Read the PDF.

Lord Captain Tobacco
08-12-2010, 10:40 PM
Good stuff. Most players just Tank their way through law enforcement until they cause enough damage that the heavy guns are brought out. Sometimes this can also lead to interesting situations...

The party Barbarian starts another bar fight. A town constable shows up and is trashed by the Barb. The constable looks around the bar at the other patrons and sees the fighter(LN) and Ranger(NG). They were staying out of what was a 'private fight' that got out of hand.
Raising his voice he calls to the other players "In the name of the King, I charge you to put down this villian!"
Both characters shrugged and proceded to pound a new mud-hole in the Barb before turning him over the the town guard.

tesral
08-14-2010, 12:54 AM
I try to make sure the city guard is not a bunch of wimps. I had them be ogres in one town. That sobered up the party pretty fast. the guy that started a riot that killed 17 people was hung for it and his body burned.

rurikjapa
08-18-2010, 11:51 PM
I asked advice from a long-time DM of mine, whose campaign we played in and not always law-abiding types. His advice, which I have taken to heart was threefold: 1. Make the response fit the trigger, i.e. a bar fight means the city guard either wades in clubs a-flailing or tracks down the slightly bloody PCs as they stumble drunkenly around, but when the PCs murder someone, a'la "taking out a doppelganger", then a squad of heavily armed guards backed up by a mage and cleric tracked the PCs; 2. If your players are the pummel-the-town-guard-'cause-we're-PCs types, make the town guard 1-3 levles higher and make sure they patrol IN FORCE; 3. Keep track of what the PCs do where, if they stabbed a minor noble who was in cahoots with a necromancer and he lived, he'd hire bounty hunters or assassins, if he died, his heirs might very well track them down, but either way, no sane person in a position of power would shrug off an assault.

tesral
08-20-2010, 01:11 AM
Make the consequences fit the action. And...There is always a bigger fish.

DM_Running_Farland_3.5
08-26-2010, 01:40 PM
Yeah. Police/military/guards may look like meatheads, but they are rarely stupid. If they see a situation they can't handle, they will get help. Having a lightly armored runner with each patrol (or magical means of instant communication) can put a hurt on the PCs quickly. Cop sees something bad, he doesn't jump in. He gets at least five more buddies than the bad guys have and then he goes in - often with even more en route. Of course, this can't be the case in small villages, but that can be settled by having some semi-retired highish level fighter living there.

It does stand to reason that this would be the case.

The PCs are not the most powerful people around and some of these other powerful people must have broken the law along the way. So any town or village off in the middle of nowhere that wants to survive would NEED some powerful people either living there and willing to help or working for them.

Malruhn
08-31-2010, 06:04 PM
I've always used the concept of the noise-maker in the security patrols/police.

Three guys with whistles make a BIG noise... and make it a capital crime to have similar sounding whistles.

I recall one group that wanted to cause mischief when the city watch showed up - with one guy about 50 yards away, yelling at them to put their weapons down - and three guys blowing their whistles. The party thought they'd have an easy time with the watch... and they would have... until 30 of them showed up. (insert evil laugh here!)

tesral
09-01-2010, 12:04 AM
On the gripping hand the London police whistle is a common thing to get (I have one around here somewhere), and anyone blowing such a whistle would bring the Bobbies. Ergo, everyone with a whistle becomes the eyes and ears of the watch.

rurikjapa
09-01-2010, 05:24 AM
Interestingly, the same DM who gave me the aforementioned advice was a player in one of my games which had a session I was totally unprepared for. I actually wasted close to 2 hours of real time BSing and blathering while their PCs travelled about 30' down the road. In revenge, several sessions later, he (a Lawful Neutral halfling monk) and another PC (a true neutral rogue masquerading as a cleric) plotted the death of an NPC rogue. When offered the plot hook, they made her "swear" to tell all she knew; as the party ventured into the sewers beneath the city, they encountered a monster. After the battle, the monk and faux-cleric braced the PC as to her failure to alert them to it's presence. Her response of "I didn't know it was here" triggered a simultaneous crossbow bolt from the monk plus a bastard-sword sneak attack from the pseudo-cleric. They killed her and looked at me expectantly... I was flummoxed, she had been a key NPC and I was stunned. Enough to tank the whole campaign. I continued to play in the DM's game (he never took anything like that out on players, just AS a player), and when I asked him how HE would have prevented such an occurence, after saying "I would never come to a session unprepared", he then offered me the idea that if there is a chance the players would wantonly slaughter NPCs, make them at least 3 levels higher than the PCs, and give them an escape plan. The corollary he offered vis a vis city guards was numbers, plan-of-action for out-of-control adventurers and ramifications, i.e. not welcome in city, reputation travels to other city, travelling nobles/ other adventurers seeking revenge/ bounty on law-breaking PCs.

tesral
09-01-2010, 12:15 PM
Never hinge a plot on one character. Second, be flexible. If something unexpected happens, change the parameters. I never seek to control the PCs actions in that respect. If they kill an NPC, I change what I must to keep things moving. Actions of course will have consequences. No free rides.

Stormbow
11-03-2010, 12:27 AM
I don't mean to ressurect a dead or dying thread here, since I'm new to the forums and all, but this thread was awesome and I wanted to say thanks for sharing. I saved the Atlas of Law to make one for my own homebrew someday. Thanks!


Good stuff. Most players just Tank their way through law enforcement until they cause enough damage that the heavy guns are brought out. Sometimes this can also lead to interesting situations...

The party Barbarian starts another bar fight. A town constable shows up and is trashed by the Barb. The constable looks around the bar at the other patrons and sees the fighter(LN) and Ranger(NG). They were staying out of what was a 'private fight' that got out of hand.
Raising his voice he calls to the other players "In the name of the King, I charge you to put down this villian!"
Both characters shrugged and proceded to pound a new mud-hole in the Barb before turning him over the the town guard.

It's not often that people genuinely "L.O.L." in real life, but this one made me laugh out loud for real. I didn't see it coming, and I've never thought to do something like that in my campaigns, but I definitely will in the future!

What would you have done if the PCs had ignored the order?


Interestingly, the same DM who gave me the aforementioned advice was a player in one of my games which had a session I was totally unprepared for. I actually wasted close to 2 hours of real time BSing and blathering while their PCs travelled about 30' down the road. In revenge, several sessions later, he (a Lawful Neutral halfling monk) and another PC (a true neutral rogue masquerading as a cleric) plotted the death of an NPC rogue. When offered the plot hook, they made her "swear" to tell all she knew; as the party ventured into the sewers beneath the city, they encountered a monster. After the battle, the monk and faux-cleric braced the PC as to her failure to alert them to it's presence. Her response of "I didn't know it was here" triggered a simultaneous crossbow bolt from the monk plus a bastard-sword sneak attack from the pseudo-cleric. They killed her and looked at me expectantly... I was flummoxed, she had been a key NPC and I was stunned. Enough to tank the whole campaign. I continued to play in the DM's game (he never took anything like that out on players, just AS a player), and when I asked him how HE would have prevented such an occurence, after saying "I would never come to a session unprepared", he then offered me the idea that if there is a chance the players would wantonly slaughter NPCs, make them at least 3 levels higher than the PCs, and give them an escape plan. The corollary he offered vis a vis city guards was numbers, plan-of-action for out-of-control adventurers and ramifications, i.e. not welcome in city, reputation travels to other city, travelling nobles/ other adventurers seeking revenge/ bounty on law-breaking PCs.

In a situation like that, I would have gone with the "someone is looking for the dead person" approach, and had the city guard, etc. after the PCs for that missing rogue. Speak with animals and a nearby rat? Who'd expect a rat to rat on the rats that killed a rat in the sewers? There'd definitely be a witness to their "crime"...

;)

tesral
10-24-2014, 06:50 AM
I'm going to necro this one to get the Atlas of Law (http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com/fantasy/fantpdf/Atlas%20of%20Law.pdf) back on the plate.

This is a updated version, still has some boobies so NSFW.

(Incidentally spoke to the Artist of that piece. It is like he read my mind on Domian Court fashion.)

Skunkape
10-24-2014, 02:23 PM
Good info on how you handle law tesral, thanks for posting.

Malruhn
10-27-2014, 02:11 AM
Where does robbery come in? You know - whip out a knife and threaten to stick someone unless they hand over the goodies? It isn't officially "theft" by the definitions above, and it might be under some others, I'm just curious.

tesral
10-27-2014, 08:58 AM
Well it is. Theft, assault and perhaps battery. The usual definition of an Honest Thief is one that steals without violence or fraud. Depending on the culture some theft is considered worse than others.

nijineko
10-28-2014, 10:59 PM
it saddens me how many players seemed shocked by natural consequences to their actions... actually that happens a lot in real life too, now that i contemplate it a bit.

tesral
10-29-2014, 01:42 AM
I've run into mote than few such examples including a few that were horrified and even insulted that their PCs might have to pay consequences for their actions. How dare my game have cause and effect.

falinxelote
10-29-2014, 05:32 AM
I've had people quit my game over it. They wanted to play evil and when they got arrested for theft and imprisoned they got all butt hurt over having got caught. I gave them a fair chance to con the judge, to escape to authorities, or to plan the crime better so they had a fall guy or some other way out. In the end they just rushed in and robbed the guy and then got caught. Dumb thieves usually end up in jail or in a noose. They got jail, I was again being nice and giving them the chance to find a way out. But rather than try to escape from the Kings prison they quit playing. So I do understand people expecting just because its a game that normal rules don't apply,

Malruhn
10-30-2014, 08:02 PM
it saddens me how many players seemed shocked by natural consequences to their actions... actually that happens a lot in real life too, now that i contemplate it a bit.

Oh. My. FLYING UNICORNS!!!

The amount of butthurt is AMAZING for this - both in and out of game!!

We have a player that recently was caught fudging dice rolls - he was a 4th level thief doing upwards of 60 points of damage on a sneak attack - even when he rolled 1's and 2's on his dice. When presented with VIDEO evidence (ceiling mounted web-cam), he got indignant and said, "Everybody does it!" When we showed him that everybody else rolled on the table in the open... he told us to get stuffed and stormed out.

I have an acquaintance that was railing about corruption and unfairness in the police departments, and for no good reason, I asked him why he got arrested. He said, "Well, the charges are for bad checks." When pressed, he admitted to writing bad checks... but couldn't figure out WHY he got arrested for it. When we found out that some of the checks were at our local gaming store, we became unglued... he's now a former friend.

Unfortunately, I could go on all night... GAAAAHHHH!!!!