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Cerhob
06-21-2010, 01:10 PM
So my game group is angry.

They can not understand how a Jedi can not have Stealth as a trained skill. They argue that Jedi Shadows/Sentinels would rely on such a skill. If not, how would they even been a Shadow/Sentinel? I have to agree with them but I hate to just give the class a free skill. Is there any Talents that would allow a Jedi to be trained in Stealth? Or Treat Injury, for that matter... as we have a Jedi who would like to be a Jedi Healer.

Anyone else have this problems? I feel that I shouldn't just give the Jedi these skills as it may make players who play a scout or noble feel less then useful. After all I am cutting into those classes skills.

I've looked over the books but I have seen nothing that allows these options. And not being able to cross class skills....sucks. If there are feats/talents that would allow getting Stealth/Treat Injury could someone please point me in the right direction.

Slipstream
06-21-2010, 01:29 PM
Is multiclassing a possibility in your game? Taking a CL or two in Scout would solve this issue, not to mention provide additional skill options, without raining on the actual Scout of the Party's parade. To ensure of this, have the Jedi semi-scout player work with the Scout and make sure they take different talents to make the group as whole more rounded out.

Cerhob
06-21-2010, 01:35 PM
I'm sure they could multiclass but at the same time, I'm playing a JEDI not some guy with a light saber who uses the force. I can't see Obi Wan or Mace Windu or any real Jedi taking other levels in any other class.

From a RAW POV, yes easily fixable by multiclassing.

But from a cannon/flavor POV no. it doesn't make sense to me.

Slipstream
06-21-2010, 01:43 PM
I can't see Obi Wan or Mace Windu or any real Jedi taking other levels in any other class.
Not even during the Clone Wars?

Cerhob
06-21-2010, 06:23 PM
Nope, not even during the clone wars

SDJThorin
06-22-2010, 06:23 PM
Hey Cerhob,

In my game I usually make it a one off use of the "Skill Training" Feat -- my players know that this is a privilege and not a right, and if they try to abuse it I'll take it away.

HOWEVER... the player MUST spend a great deal of effort roleplaying and having their Character use/learn the non-Class skill desired -- in its simplest form, this could be spending an entire level and multiple checks every session using the skill in creative and useful ways. If they wanted to start with the skill, then they had better impress me with a great background writeup.

I know of another GM who allows a PC to gain non-Class skills if the player spends TWO "Skill Training" Feats on each skill, one to make it a Class skill and one to become trained in it.

Hope this helps you out some.

Slipstream
06-23-2010, 04:54 PM
Nope, not even during the clone wars
Interesting. I respectively disagree with you. With playing Saga, I came to realization as I've built my characters that just because the class level says I'm something doesn't necessarily make my character a <insert class>.

To me, it all depends on where your character finds their identity. My Duros pilot for instance is heading towards the Ace Pilot prestige class. On the way there, he's taking mostly Scoundrel levels. Does this mean I RP him like Han or Lando? By no means. He's much more of a Wash than anything (no really (http://www.slipstream.cc/images/starwars/xercutus/xercutus.html)). But mechanically, I'm utilizing one or two very useful talent trees that provide the necessarily bonuses to flesh out my character. He's even got a level in Soldier to help provide for the use of an armored flight suit, mostly for the justifiable flavor of the character, but secondarily to the armor bonus.

This, as I stated earlier, goes the same for Obi-Wan. He was called a General during the Clone Wars. He knew tactics and dished out commands to battalions of clone troopers. This says certain aspects of Soldier to me. He had to have got some Republic training in this shortly after the Battle of Geonosis. Does this make him a Soldier in identity as a character? No. He's still a Jedi Master, through and through. But he also knows how to pilot a decent amount and fire off the occasionally necessary, if uncivilized, blaster shot. :)

To follow up with SDJThorin's mention of background being important: Obi-Wan's training in Soldier was circumstantial for the time in which he lived. Thus it was plausible.

Inquisitor Tremayne
06-24-2010, 12:01 AM
Unfortunately I am unaware of anything besides the Cloak power that would give the Jedi class the Stealth skill.

Regarding the topic of Jedi with other levels, as you play Saga more and more you will realize the near unlimited class combos you can create to create the exact character you want. Saga and its free multiclassing is a beautiful thing.

I have several points to make on this topic...

If you do not see Obi Wan or any other Jedi taking levels in another class, then how do you explain General Grevious with levels in Jedi? Clearly he is NOT a Jedi.

Also, besides the lame optional rule that came out in GaW (I think) how do you explain Jedi during the clone wars (if we include the new cartoon) wearing armor? They do not start with proficiency nor do they get access to armor talents until they enter the Jedi Knight tree.

Also, Obi Wan is not listed as being trained in Pilot, how could he fly so well against Jango? 2 answers, his droid and he is also getting half his level added to his untrained pilot checks, that goes a long way to helping high level characters make average rolls in skills they are not trained in.

The two points I am trying to make are the films are and should be independent from the RPG. Saga does a decent job of simulating the films but it is far from perfect simulation. Second, the class names really are simply names, remove the names and you still have the same mechanical effects. Why would you stick with a class if it isn't giving you the things you want? Just because of some preconceived notion that the class name represents your character?

A Jedi is still a Jedi because he adheres to particular ideals and concepts, not because he uses the force and wields a lightsaber. Answer this question, if you could not use a lightsaber or the Force would you still want to be a Jedi?

I do agree because I am often a romantic idealist that a Jedi character should have all Jedi levels, but it is rare in Saga to do so. My Jedi for DoD begun that way, but she was getting her butt kicked so bad that I had to multiclass into Soldier just so I could wear armor! She is still a Jedi and has recently become a Jedi Master!

Cerhob
06-24-2010, 12:34 PM
If you do not see Obi Wan or any other Jedi taking levels in another class, then how do you explain General Grevious with levels in Jedi? Clearly he is NOT a Jedi.

Well General Grevious has levels in Jedi due to his training with Count Dooku, and also his blood transfusion with Master Syfio Dyas...


Remember that the Jedi class isn't only about the Force -- it's broader, encompassing all the Jedi arts. Thus, a non-Force-sensitive duelist might study under a Jedi and take levels in the Jedi class, becoming more skillful with a lightsaber despite having no ability to use the Force (and thus no access to some of the class's best talents, such as Deflect and Block). In fact, a character like General Grievous fits this profile very well, and it would be perfectly valid to create his character with levels in Jedi to reflect his years of study under Count Dooku.

Anyway, I understand that I can mulitclass to wash my problems away. I rolled an Ubese Scout who is now also a solder and a scoundrel because of skills and talents. But I'm not a powergamer. I enjoy the flavor. And the book says Mace Windu, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto, Ki-adi Mundi, Aayla Secura well all Jedi/Jedi Knight/Jedi Master then that's what I'm going to be if I'm role-playing that I'm a "true" light-side-side Jedi.

This would all be different though if I wanted to roll say a "gray"or "dark" Jedi. Or a Jedi who was in Luke's order.

I'm not trying to argue with any of you, and I understand where you are coming from. The path of a Jedi is not an easy path to follow. *Grins*

Also, if you were getting your butt kicked in DoD as a Jedi, you must not have Skill Focus (Use The Force) or something. My friend has that with Deflect/Block and is able to block most shots that come his way.

Then again... we are only level 4 in that campaign.

Inquisitor Tremayne
06-24-2010, 09:54 PM
Cool. Yeah I wanted to be pure Jedi too, but I am going lightsaber focused route, so my highest stats are Str, Dex Con. Actually you can check her out in this threadhttp://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php/4546-Dawn-of-Defiance-characters/page3 (which I am about to update because we just made level 13! Hooray for Jedi Master!)

But level 1 was rough! She is a Kel Dor Jedi, and I picked Force Boon at 1st level instead of Skill Focus, she is a bad*ss with a lightsaber, not an uber Force wizard. That is the role of the other force user in our group, he has like 16 or more Force Powers and an insanely high UtF.

So he beats things up with the Force and I cut them down!

Also, our GM does a fairly decent job instilling fear into us of over using the Force, since it is in the Dark Times era and Force users are being fiercely hunted down!

Cerhob
06-27-2010, 03:14 PM
I can't beat up things with the force as our DM gives Darkside points anytime we use the force to harm living creatures. Kinda sucks but it makes sense.
I don't have Skill Focus (UtF) either. First feat was Jedi Heritage (I'm playing a Twi'lek Jedi) but now I get 5 force powers with each force training I take.

canadiansatan
07-06-2010, 04:45 AM
There is a talent in the jedi supplement book (packed up all my books, arg.) that allows a jedi to use their use the force modifier in place of stealth and be considered trained in stealth. It's a white wind something or other talent.

On a side note, one of the best things about this new system is that you can (as a gm in your game) create a jedi shadow talent tree or extra talent to cover something you think needs to be added.

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-06-2010, 04:34 PM
OH crap! Yeah he is correct! The White Current adept talent tree! In the Jedi Academy book. You have to be a member of that tradition OR a Jedi Master to take one of those talents though.

Cerhob
07-07-2010, 03:24 AM
Wow, there it is. Thanks!

I may just have to add that talent to the Jedi Shadow's lists of talents... though that seems like a nice tree

Thank you again.

Cerhob
07-08-2010, 03:57 PM
OR a Jedi Master to take one of those talents though.

Curious. How can a Jedi Master take the talent if he does not belong to the tradition? Maybe I missed something.

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-09-2010, 09:42 AM
Page 14 of the Jedi Academy Training Manual.

The Force Disciple, Jedi Master, and Sith Lord have access to all Force talent trees. A Force talent tree is any tree that isn't tied to a particular class thus the Force tradition trees fall under that category because they are non-class-specific.

It is good to be a Jedi Master!

Cerhob
07-10-2010, 04:19 AM
Hum. not really sure if I agree with that. I mean Jedi have access to Force talent trees but that's Alter, sense, control and Darkside. Not other Force using traditions. That just doesn't make sense.

It even says "These talents are available onlt to characters with Force Sensitivity feat and even then only if the character is a member of that tradition."

Then again, I could understand that a Jedi Master might have connections to holocrons with information on other traditions but that would be an RP thing and not really RAW

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-10-2010, 12:14 PM
Did you read the passage in the book because my paraphrasing does a pee-poor job of fully explaining it.

I look at it as the Force Disciple, Jedi Master, and Sith Lord is so attuned with the Force that it opens them up to being able to learn new secrets, techniques, talents and what-ever else easier than other Force using characters.

It is also a matter of updating the rules, making exceptions to the rules, etc... as newer books are released. I believe you are quoting what is stated in the Core book, since JATM is a more recent book, then it's clarifications and new rules supersede the Core.

Cerhob
07-11-2010, 04:26 AM
I do not believe that any book so really "supersede" any rule found in any core rule book unless it specifically says it does. In DnD 3.X if there was ever a contradiction of rules, it was the core rule books you followed. I feel the same way about SAGA and any other gaming system.

I believe that the problem lies in the fact that they wrote "Force Talent Trees" in the Force Disciple, Jedi Master and Sith Lord talents as anyone who has the Force Sensitive feet can pick from those trees any time they gain a talent. I do also understand that you CAN have a not Force Sensitive Jedi so perhaps they add the "Force Talent Trees" line it to add that "even though you do not have the Force Sensitive feet, you can still pick from there now."

Either way, I believe that the RAW is rather confusing and I wish we could just ask the people who wrote it what they meant.... But that is a topic all on it's own that I will not be getting into here at the moment :-P

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-11-2010, 10:52 PM
You should actually PM Gary Sarli, you will more than likely get a response.

Frankly I have no problem with the rule. The rule was created so they could build certain EU characters, like Grand Master Luke and Jacen Solo so they could take talents from the White Current Adept tree.

Plus my Kel Dor Jedi Master from DoD is going to take Baran Do Sage talents!