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d-_-b
06-04-2010, 02:40 AM
This question might be considered a little explicit (adult)...


I'm currently DM'ing a campaign in northern Faerun, and am in the habit of levelling up monsters. I plan for my party to encounter a band of experienced orc warriors within the next couple of weeks. My question is this: Is it ok to let orcs be orcs and savage/rape female player characters?:eek:

Please understand that the object of the encounter is NOT to rape the female character in question. The thing is, however, that IMO it is orchish nature to do this kind of thing -they are prototypical savages after all- and I find it highly likely that orcs would try and capture their victims and put them to "good use", possibly right then and there. Also I think it would make for good role playing once everybody realize what is going to happen to the grappled wizard who is being dragged behind a bush or into a hut and thus add some intensity to the whole encounter as the remaining characters rush to her aid.

The female character in my game is played by a guy, but I really don't know if that is better or worse in this case:confused:. She is presently lvl 6 and has been played for 4-5 months.

Sascha
06-04-2010, 09:30 AM
Have you talked to the players about it?

d-_-b
06-04-2010, 09:51 AM
No, I have not talked to the players about it because I want them to react "naturally" to the situation. If I talked to them about it they would most likely form a tight seal around their female companion whenever they saw an orc. Granted, they should protect their spell caster, female or not. They are a curious mix of power players and roleplayers -the female elf is played by a roleplayer who has proved to be a very inventive and effective spellcaster as well. I don't wanna ruin the character for him and I very much xpect the characters to rescue their spellcaster before the threat of being raped becomes reality but if they fail to prevent it the pretty elf will be raped.

fmitchell
06-04-2010, 10:45 AM
Two reactions ...

1. No. Just no.

2. It would be more effective to menace the character with this "fate worse than death", than to actually have it happen. For example, the orcs claim her as a prize, then argue over who gets her first. That gives the PC time (and incentive) to escape, and her friends to mount a daring rescue.

Sascha
06-04-2010, 02:19 PM
I can't see how adding this threat adds to the enjoyment of the game. Especially in direct application on a player's character.

Personally, I'd take issue with the threat of rape being introduced without prior warning, and having a character be the sole target by merely being female. But I'm not at your table.


No, I have not talked to the players about it because I want them to react "naturally" to the situation.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive.


If I talked to them about it they would most likely form a tight seal around their female companion whenever they saw an orc.
Which would ... break verisimilitude? Sounds perfectly reasonable, if the characters would have any inkling as to orc behavior.


I don't wanna ruin the character for him and I very much xpect the characters to rescue their spellcaster before the threat of being raped becomes reality but if they fail to prevent it the pretty elf will be raped.
You might just 'ruin' the character anyway, if the consequences of being violated are even somewhat realistic.

d-_-b
06-04-2010, 07:23 PM
I have been giving this a lot of thought and I think that the general consensus here is that you don't rape player characters. I tend to agree and ultimately I am not confident that my players will appreciate this specific roleplaying experience. For now I will have the orcs carry of hapless villagers and have the heroes focus on saving them from said fate worse than death. Thanks for your replies:)

wizarddog
06-05-2010, 06:32 PM
I'm glad you came to that decision.

tesral
06-05-2010, 11:12 PM
Well it depends on the Orcs. On Thindacarulle Orcs don't have sex with animals. Which is all the PCs would be.

d-_-b
06-06-2010, 06:17 PM
Our campaign takes place in the Forgotten Realms where orcs are prototypical savages who tend to rape and pillage when they make forays into human lands.

tesral
06-06-2010, 09:35 PM
"Savages"....

the thing is even "Savages" need a culture that works internally. If the Orcs, any stripe, were total and absolute rage pillage and kill machines there wouldn't be Orcs either. So the perjoritive of "savage" really describes nothing but someone's opinion. Usually a someone from outside the "savages' culture.

Vikings for example. Reputation as blood thirsty kill the women but save the sheep types. Back home they are farmers and fishermen. They have wives they love and respect, children they lovingly raise. Not at all the people that ravaged the coasts of Europe. Yet they did.

So, what are Orcs when not ravaging, killing, and pillaging? What social structures do they have? What traditions for dealing with tribe and family?

I had to think passed the raid. "Evil" was not enough. In fact it really explains nothing. What is the realtionship of the common Orc to his leader? What is the place of women and children? How do they view other people? Other Orc tribes? Do they have a dispute resolution other than kill the other Orc? All these questions and more needed to be dealt with for Orcs to be a viable race in my world. To that end I dealt with them.

Orcs have a narrow people button. Not Orcs do not press it. Humans, Elves and other races are "smart animals. The equal of mating with monkeys.

The side effect is that on my world there are no half Orcs. That is bestiality of the worst kind.

One does not have to do it my way, but this kind of thought process needs to be done.

fmitchell
06-07-2010, 08:20 AM
Searching the Intertubes for rape in RPGs, I found this essay: http://www.gamegrene.com/node/447

There used to be an article called "Save for Half Cooties: Gaming and the Femininely Advantaged", which addressed broader concerns of women gamers and portraying women in games. Unfortunately, the site seems to be permanently down. In the meantime, browse through John H. Kim's collection of links on the topic: http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/gender/links.html

thomaswhodoubts
06-07-2010, 01:36 PM
I think the threat of rape should be explicit, but, being set in a fantasy campaign, any women would be raised with horror stories of orcs and should roleplay accordingly. As fas as actually having the rape occur, I don't have a problem with it in theory, but I can't imagine it coming out any other way than a very upset player - especially a male, for whom the idea of violation in that way is so foreign - except for picking up the soap in prison jokes, of course. If it were me, I would have the character completely lose it, become single-minded in her pursuit of all orcs, which would probably ruin the game - unless single-monster campaigns with victim/obsessed killers is your sort of thing.

Rastfar
06-10-2010, 03:13 PM
As a player, I would be OK with it. But that's just me, and everyone is different. The mere suggestion of rape, in any form, regardless of sex of the individual is one of those taboo subjects that most people are going to have a very strong opinion about. You need to gauge how well you know your group. I do not know if the player being male makes it more or less of an 'acceptable threat' but I do know that I would certainly never consider it if it were a female player. This is a heinous violation that we as men could never fully understand, despite whatever our limited understanding of 'jailhouse' humour.

The scene that you describe is certainly an effective story-telling tool and a means to convey fear, horror, and revulsion, but I would agree that ideally the heroics of the PC's should win out before said threat is meted. However, you must be prepared to carry out your threat, or divine some other clever way for the PC in question to have an 'out' if the rest of the group fails to foil the grisly act.

But, I agree, with the majority - why risk it? The fact that you are soliciting opinions infers that you believe that on some level someone in your group would be uncomfortable with it. Is there not some other why to portray the orcs as villainous and wretched?

I try to abide by one core rule: We are all taking time to play these games together to have fun. And if you're not having fun, then that isn't worth your precious time and you should be doing something else to enjoy yourself.

Don't take that opportunity from someone else.

d-_-b
06-11-2010, 05:27 PM
Ok. Now the players have encountered the orcs who raped a village girl and it played out pretty much as I had feared it would. The players arrive on the scene in time to witness two orcs dragging a young girl into a tent and instead of rushing to her aid they merely go like "they're gonna pay -later" and let the heinous act be perpetrated. Instead they go on to make sure that no orcs escape the scene probably thinking that while the orcs are having fun in tent at least they are not going anywhere.
In any event I will be unable to carry on with an experiment to see if it would change anything that the victim of such an act was a player character as the female character was killed by a driders fireball during the last gaming session.

SDJThorin
06-11-2010, 06:16 PM
Hey there,

New around here, but our group just actually went through something similar, except that it was a solo game where the player was a non-evil half-orc fighter, living in Orcish society.

We discussed the fact that things like what you mentioned above -- and worse -- would occur. Together we decided how far we wanted to delve into this and what we were and weren't comfortable with.

In the game so far, there were a few times where very dark things happened and we did play through it, glossing over the things we didn't want to get into.

This was also the reason behind why his PC is now trying to escape that society and rescue the 3 slaves that he now "owns".

If you'd like to read the writeups of these sessions, they're @ http://gamenight.wyldeside.com/ under the titles "The Thing About Orcs" and "The Thing About Orcs 2"

tesral
06-14-2010, 08:20 AM
2: Write to your audience
Know your players. Ask what they like and what they want to see in the game. Vital, ASK. Don't assume, poll the players, inquire and check things out. Their role in the game is as important as yours.

On that note seek adventures of mutual enjoyment. If you are a sea adventure bunny (like me) and your players are not (like mine), then don't write sea adventures. Write something you both like. You are part of your own audience. If you don't like what you are doing it will show and enjoyment will be lessened.

Explore the limits, but be careful. Pushing the limits can be a good thing if you do not push then too far.. Push people's limits too far and they get uncomfortable. uncomfortable people are not having fun. People that are not having fun stop coming. Don't even go there if you do not know your players very well indeed. It's a game, not a psychological test.

tesral
06-14-2010, 05:03 PM
double post, sorry.

Utgardloki
09-18-2010, 10:54 PM
"Savages"....

the thing is even "Savages" need a culture that works internally. If the Orcs, any stripe, were total and absolute rage pillage and kill machines there wouldn't be Orcs either. So the perjoritive of "savage" really describes nothing but someone's opinion. Usually a someone from outside the "savages' culture.

Vikings for example. Reputation as blood thirsty kill the women but save the sheep types. Back home they are farmers and fishermen. They have wives they love and respect, children they lovingly raise. Not at all the people that ravaged the coasts of Europe. Yet they did.

So, what are Orcs when not ravaging, killing, and pillaging? What social structures do they have? What traditions for dealing with tribe and family?

I had to think passed the raid. "Evil" was not enough. In fact it really explains nothing. What is the realtionship of the common Orc to his leader? What is the place of women and children? How do they view other people? Other Orc tribes? Do they have a dispute resolution other than kill the other Orc? All these questions and more needed to be dealt with for Orcs to be a viable race in my world. To that end I dealt with them.

Orcs have a narrow people button. Not Orcs do not press it. Humans, Elves and other races are "smart animals. The equal of mating with monkeys.

The side effect is that on my world there are no half Orcs. That is bestiality of the worst kind.

One does not have to do it my way, but this kind of thought process needs to be done.

I think is where I am thinking -- things need to be plausible.

If orcs do rape females they capture, which could be a viable evolutionary strategy, then if they capture a female PC, there would have to be a reason for them not to follow their modus operandi. This may mean that to avoid this fate, the players will have to use their skills and resources.

The Runequest Glorantha setting has creatures that will rape anybody or anything, and leave parasitic eggs if they succeed. Very horrible. You can understand the "kill them all" mentality.

DM_Running_Farland_3.5
09-22-2010, 12:15 PM
You could introduce the idea of rape to your PCs by having them come across a group of orcs that are "enjoying the spoils". Perhaps the wizard comes across them first and the other PCs follow quickly. There is a moment there where the orcs think they've just been given another treat. Until Ooolaf the Skullcrusher comes around the bend and summarily reminds them who is at the top of the food chain (good guys, of course).

That way she is definately threatened, definately saved and the PCs definately know that the orcs are bad mammajammas.

Plus, you give her a chance to pull one out of the air and blast them all.

DMMike
09-22-2010, 02:23 PM
Vikings for example. Reputation as blood thirsty kill the women but save the sheep types.

LOL tesral - I'm sure you meant saving the sheep for...wool cultivation? Anyway, thanks for bringing some sanity to this thread (re: orcs wouldn't exist long if...). The thread's content sort of reminds me of this (at 1:25):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmgLOKRl5J0

However, if a DM is determined to have pure evil creatures running amok, you could pretty easily use undead or demons, or if you're playing Forry, some standard PC races.

rabkala
09-22-2010, 09:31 PM
I would definitely go for a rough and tumble orc lass. Mmmm.... bacon all night long!

Moritz
10-25-2010, 07:02 PM
I recently had an orc army attack a town (off panel). So when the party arrived, they found the remains of the assault.
One of the listed 'remains' was a half eaten baby. There were many charred bodies and several others of the female persuasion having been violated and brutally murdered.

I think doing it 'off panel' may have been the better options. Though your situation cannot happen off panel, it may be best left out or implied if it comes down to it.

The reason I say that was because the 'half eaten babies' were shocking enough.

tesral
10-25-2010, 08:57 PM
No kidding. That is just wasteful. If you are going to start a baby, finish it.

Malruhn
10-25-2010, 10:59 PM
I once DM'ed a group of Elven characters in their assault of an orcan compound. There was one last door that was barricaded from inside - and when they finally got it open, they saw a group of orcan females killing the last of the orc children before falling on their own daggers.

The players were REALLY upset about it - until one suddenly got really quiet and said, "They killed the kids and themselves so the evil Elves wouldn't get hold of them. We would do the same thing..."

It put a HUGE spin on the way they thought - ala Enemy Mine or the alternate ending of I am Legend. Just who IS the bad group?

DMMike
10-27-2010, 01:58 AM
Ruh roh... time to go back to my 'Alignment: Evil' thread.

I like Thorin's idea the best:

"You're captured. But not killed. Instead very dark things happen."

But on another note - why not threaten the male characters with rape too? Orcs have to be at least as foul as some prison inmates. :wink:

Utgardloki
10-29-2010, 12:11 AM
I just had the thought that when orcs fight, they fight, and when they fight with lethal weapons, they kill. The only way to get violated by an orc is to give up your weapon (or not have a weapon in the first place) and cower submissively until the orc has finished killing everybody who is fighting.

Unfortunately, this could lead to a "blame the victim" mentality. Or it could be accepted as part of the culture.

tesral
10-29-2010, 12:24 AM
Pretty much how I see it, they are not big into stopping a fight until the weapons are down. Again, My Orcs, not a universal case. They are going to go easier on people (Orcs). Non-people don't get much consideration unless they want slaves/food on the hoof. Not that there is much difference.

Hobgoblins are more likely to rape. Wider people button. They will even take non-hobgoblins in as Hobgoblins. Wear the right stuff, behave the right way, welcome to the tribe.

Utgardloki
10-30-2010, 04:16 PM
I have been considering what the relation might be between hobgoblins and women in my setting's Kosaka culture. If hobgoblins and humans have evolved a system of exchanging captives for money, that means that female humans and female hobgoblins get the kind of chance to see the other side that males do not have.

I'm thinking it does not happen very often since the point of having so many warriors is so that another tribe can not kill them all and take them women and treasure. But they probably have formalized rituals and practices whereby the captives are treated decently enough to get a good price, probably under the supervision of priestesses so that the men don't have to concern themselves with the details.

A human would never be accepted into a hobgoblin tribe or vice versa, but there could be conversations and discussions about matters of culture, religion, and home economics. Females may even be occasionally employed as translators, for those rare occasions when humans and hobgoblins want to talk to each other. (Usually they'd go through gnomish intermediaries.)

Sascha
10-31-2010, 04:08 PM
If they're willing to talk and trade prisoners, why not treat any member of the opposition as wartime currency? Why only females?

fmitchell
10-31-2010, 09:00 PM
If they're willing to talk and trade prisoners, why not treat any member of the opposition as wartime currency? Why only females?

Even in some human cultures, men are people and women are property.

tesral
11-01-2010, 12:27 AM
Sadly true.

Sascha
11-01-2010, 02:08 AM
Even in some human cultures, men are people and women are property.
Oh, I'm aware. It's more directed than that, in that two opposing cultures wouldn't necessarily hold the other's definitions of sex and/or gender (especially gender, being a social construct and all) in the same regard. (Though, if the two sides started blending cultures, that might be worth the initial setup.)

Also, given the thread's original premise and drift, that it only happens with females is a bit concerning.

tesral
11-01-2010, 03:21 AM
It is sadly a primitive culture trope.

Utgardloki
11-01-2010, 10:29 PM
Because the men are expected to fight to the death. Who wants a guy who loses when it really counts.

However, I suppose an occasional male slave could be captured and sold. And boys would be captured with the women and girls, and sold to tribes looking to boost their manpower.

tesral
11-01-2010, 10:52 PM
The Mongols killed any male child taller than the hub of a wagon wheel.

Baurdale
12-18-2010, 07:04 PM
Well in my experience of movies, stories and campaigns regarding orcs, they would rather EAT the elf or human rather than rape it.