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jpatterson
05-22-2010, 02:43 PM
Mine are from WFRP2 and I won't even go into the whole dropping it for third edition.

Character creation.


For a so-called “classless” game, there is a gob-load of “careers” to slog through. For new players, I can only imagine this would be overwhelming, as it still can be to me, and I’ve ran it a number of times. Say what I will about D&D, Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Wizard has a certain simplicity, and even the more current 10 or so class framework with Paladins and such is still a good mix of manageability and variety. Warhammer’s Rat-Catcher and Toll-Keeper, while surely historically accurate, are completely irrelevant and definitely not worthy of being actual significant player career choices, set apart by themselves. There should be maybe a Peasant class (which there is in a later bit) and sub-types given and broken down into things like this if a player wants, but it would still use the same template). This would severely curb the authors’ fetish for careerizing everything under the sun into an adventuring motif, and cut the career part of character creation in half, at LEAST. You could still buy a Small But Vicious Dog as a pet or a special ability or something.


Stats.


Oh boy, a max of 2D10 + 20 for all my stats if I’m a human. Out of 100. So up to 40%. So not quite half. Neat… You know, “gritty” is one thing, but incompetent is another. Combat is already still potentially deadly at any level of achievement, proficiency, experience or armament, so why give me less than a 50/50 shot to hit the broad side of a barn? And don’t say that the enemies and other citizens also have that, that doesn’t help, that just means EVERYBODY will be rolling dice a LOT and saying “Damn I missed AGAIN too, your turn”. I think this was a horrible, HORRIBLE mis-calculation and mistake on the part of the creators. It takes SO long to up stats significantly, and they’re split into either your main stats or your secondary stats. You also have to choose to do that instead of buy abilities.


Those secondary stats, which are the tens digit of your main stats (Toughness Bonus, which reduces damage, is taken from your Toughness) are also superflous. Just ALWAYS use the tens column and you won’t even have to have this on the sheet, just look half an inch up and see that your toughness is 32 and know your TB is 3. Presto! But no, you can increase these, which begs the question – what the f*k is Toughness for?!


Percentiles.


Yeah it’s 100% but I don’t like it. It’s not a roll and sum system, it’s not even a count successes. It’s roll two dice and read them, it’s essentially purely random, more random than random, if you know what I mean, and if you don’t, I’m not going to go into the math. It’s not bad, and if you have a 72% Weapon Skill, you’re still going to hit a lot of the time, but it feels so cold and spartan, there’s no dominance like 5D6 in Weapon Skill, where you just know you’re gonna roll a shitload at some point and be like “Oh yah, that’s 52, out of 19, suck it!” Their critical hit system is a mess, you reverse the dice for hit locations or use doubles or – it’s complicated and steps over its own feet and my group tends to use the old BRP system of 10 or less is a critical hit, or 10% of your skill is, depending which is better or more dramatic at the time and/or the old Warhammer every time you roll a 6 (well 10 now that is uses D10 for damage) it “explodes” and you roll an extra die – Ulric’s Fury I think it’s called now.


Trappings.

Couldn't get away from enumerating everything but the ten foot pole and the spikes and pitons, thanks so much D&D, for continuing to infect other games with your anal retentiveness . Nobody can just put "adventuring pack" in a book - every time you make a new character, you have to write down "dagger, traveling clothes, pack, sturdy leather boots, cloak" etc. What a waste of time and effort. I think we can assume some things safely, mmmkay? Do I buy a shovel and pry bar and hand ax and fishing line? What if I need to camp? Oh noes?! Decisions! WFRP - Old World Camping Simulator!

Advance Schemes.

WS +10% T +1

If you take another scheme that has +10%, you don't get the +10%, but if it has a +5% or +20%, you get it, because you can't copy an earlier advance, for reasons never explained to any degree of legitimacy.

Careers.

These aren't like classes, that's what sets WFRP apart from D&D. Your career is what you did BEFORE you started adventuring, not what you're doing now - you've left your old life behind to pursue a new life of seeking fame and riches through adventure! So says the book.

Okay, so why am I advancing in the career's advance scheme and gaining the skills and getting the bonuses for it after I've started playing and am clearly no longer cutting hair as a Barber-Surgeon, but am killing Blood Sedges and cutting Orcs in half? Why, when I "buy" up all my advances and skills, can I exit to a fittingly appropriate step up from that to something else? Am I an adventurer, or am I a Barber Surgeon? You really can't do both, especially not in the Old World. You can't just hang up a sign on your blacksmith shop and that says "Gone Adventuring, be back next month" and stay in business.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
05-22-2010, 07:56 PM
As I read your complaints, it leaves me wondering if you've ever played the game. Whether you have or haven't, i do appreciate in the way your questions - complaints - were worded, for they will definitely encourage dialog with fellow WFRP gamers.

Okay, let me respond to your first gripe: "Gobs" of careers in WFRP does not - NEVER - equates to "gobs" of career choices, therefore, one is never overwhelmed with choices. If your DM is letting you choose from the career manual listing over 200 careers, then s/he is making a huge mistake. What's available to your character is limited to what is available based on numerous variables, including location.

Storytelling time: Had a player that was ready to career up and wanted to go Pit Fighter. Told him there is no pit fighting in the particular town he is in, but these (i listed a few) other career options were available to him. He had to seek out a location where pit fighting was going on. Well, next - larger - town over there was a pit fight going on. He told me again he wanted to be a pit fighter. I told him that in order to take on the career, he has to fight and win his first pit fight. He did so, and therefore became a pit fighter. You could feel the tension around the gaming table as they watched him almost get killed, but he lucked out and cut off and arm of his opponent. He, himself, almost died in the process. Sure, he can call himself a pit fighter, but in order to earn skills in said career, he had to actually fight pit fights. The game is dark, edgy, and gritty, and so each individual tends to go his or her own unique route to gain experience from life's challenges, and doing so by minimizing the risks of death. Ah, good times.

I wish you lived closer, jpatterson, for i have a huge WFRP game beginning in the next 4-6 weeks that should run for years. I would love to have you at our gaming table. http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

BIGKILLA
05-22-2010, 10:21 PM
Mine are from WFRP2 and I won't even go into the whole dropping it for third edition.

Character creation.


For a so-called “classless” game, there is a gob-load of “careers” to slog through. For new players, I can only imagine this would be overwhelming, as it still can be to me, and I’ve ran it a number of times. Say what I will about D&D, Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Wizard has a certain simplicity, and even the more current 10 or so class framework with Paladins and such is still a good mix of manageability and variety. Warhammer’s Rat-Catcher and Toll-Keeper, while surely historically accurate, are completely irrelevant and definitely not worthy of being actual significant player career choices, set apart by themselves. There should be maybe a Peasant class (which there is in a later bit) and sub-types given and broken down into things like this if a player wants, but it would still use the same template). This would severely curb the authors’ fetish for careerizing everything under the sun into an adventuring motif, and cut the career part of character creation in half, at LEAST. You could still buy a Small But Vicious Dog as a pet or a special ability or something.
Career generation is supposed to be random, to me that is half the fun in WHFRP. true there is alot of careers to go through to me thats also half the fun in deciding what route you are going to go. And for the relevancy of the carrers players are NOT heroes, they are everyday Joes like you and I, maybe a computer programmer, a stock boy, or a bum like myself.


Stats.


Oh boy, a max of 2D10 + 20 for all my stats if I’m a human. Out of 100. So up to 40%. So not quite half. Neat… You know, “gritty” is one thing, but incompetent is another. Combat is already still potentially deadly at any level of achievement, proficiency, experience or armament, so why give me less than a 50/50 shot to hit the broad side of a barn? And don’t say that the enemies and other citizens also have that, that doesn’t help, that just means EVERYBODY will be rolling dice a LOT and saying “Damn I missed AGAIN too, your turn”. I think this was a horrible, HORRIBLE mis-calculation and mistake on the part of the creators. It takes SO long to up stats significantly, and they’re split into either your main stats or your secondary stats. You also have to choose to do that instead of buy abilities.


Those secondary stats, which are the tens digit of your main stats (Toughness Bonus, which reduces damage, is taken from your Toughness) are also superflous. Just ALWAYS use the tens column and you won’t even have to have this on the sheet, just look half an inch up and see that your toughness is 32 and know your TB is 3. Presto! But no, you can increase these, which begs the question – what the f*k is Toughness for?!
Again as above, your a everyday Joe, you shouldn't have amazing stats. I do agree with you on the secondary stats for Strength and Toughness, and yes there is alot of back and forth missing in combat,I agree with that as well,but I like it just the same but some fix could be used there too.


Percentile.


Yeah it’s 100% but I don’t like it. It’s not a roll and sum system, it’s not even a count successes. It’s roll two dice and read them, it’s essentially purely random, more random than random, if you know what I mean, and if you don’t, I’m not going to go into the math. It’s not bad, and if you have a 72% Weapon Skill, you’re still going to hit a lot of the time, but it feels so cold and spartan, there’s no dominance like 5D6 in Weapon Skill, where you just know you’re gonna roll a shitload at some point and be like “Oh yah, that’s 52, out of 19, suck it!” Their critical hit system is a mess, you reverse the dice for hit locations or use doubles or – it’s complicated and steps over its own feet and my group tends to use the old BRP system of 10 or less is a critical hit, or 10% of your skill is, depending which is better or more dramatic at the time and/or the old Warhammer every time you roll a 6 (well 10 now that is uses D10 for damage) it “explodes” and you roll an extra die – Ulric’s Fury I think it’s called now.
All I can say is its my favorite critical hit system in any game I have played.


Trappings.

Couldn't get away from enumerating everything but the ten foot pole and the spikes and pitons, thanks so much D&D, for continuing to infect other games with your anal retentiveness . Nobody can just put "adventuring pack" in a book - every time you make a new character, you have to write down "dagger, traveling clothes, pack, sturdy leather boots, cloak" etc. What a waste of time and effort. I think we can assume some things safely, mmmkay? Do I buy a shovel and pry bar and hand ax and fishing line? What if I need to camp? Oh noes?! Decisions! WFRP - Old World Camping Simulator!
You buy gear as in any other game, I would rather it be detailed than just assuming everything you need is on your person. I think it adds detail and richness to the game.

Advance Schemes.

WS +10% T +1

If you take another scheme that has +10%, you don't get the +10%, but if it has a +5% or +20%, you get it, because you can't copy an earlier advance, for reasons never explained to any degree of legitimacy.
Well if your current or any past careers have or had a +10 you couldn't take the +5, you only get the bonus at its highest point. You can only know a skill or ability so well. If one career has a +10 weapon skill and and a new one you go into has a +5 it basically means that the amount of skill is limited and that you had learned more from the one with the +10, same goes to going into a career that has a +20 means that the new career can teach you considerably more than your last career.

Careers.

These aren't like classes, that's what sets WFRP apart from D&D. Your career is what you did BEFORE you started adventuring, not what you're doing now - you've left your old life behind to pursue a new life of seeking fame and riches through adventure! So says the book.

Okay, so why am I advancing in the career's advance scheme and gaining the skills and getting the bonuses for it after I've started playing and am clearly no longer cutting hair as a Barber-Surgeon, but am killing Blood Sedges and cutting Orcs in half? Why, when I "buy" up all my advances and skills, can I exit to a fittingly appropriate step up from that to something else? Am I an adventurer, or am I a Barber Surgeon? You really can't do both, especially not in the Old World. You can't just hang up a sign on your blacksmith shop and that says "Gone Adventuring, be back next month" and stay in business.
I kind of understand your gripe here, but you can always at any point spend 100 or 200 XP(not sure off the top of my head) to switch to a new basic career that you do not qualify for. And your not a adventurer 100% of the time, WHFRP IMO has a much richer and fuller roleplay quality to the game, to me its like its expected for people to develop their characters more and really flesh them out and Roleplay them rather than Rollplay them like it seems to me DnD and most other games seem to be nowadays. WHFRP really doesn't lend itself to dungeon crawl type games.

MortonStromgal
06-27-2010, 07:01 PM
For a so-called “classless” game,

Wait, who said it was classless? Its a class game just like Vampire, Runequest, or anything else where you have some templates.

emirikol
07-02-2010, 11:46 AM
I understand some of the complaints, but most of them seem like powergamer complaints. There's the same old argument: how come I can't just hang up my D&D armor as a fighter and be a wizard for a couple adventures, or how come I dont' start with more creation points, or how come I have to be a mook. Well, that's just how games are. There have to be limits. If there were no guidelines or limits they'd just call it an MMO. :)

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
07-02-2010, 01:29 PM
In my experience with WFRP, the only complaints i ever really got were from power gamers. I, personally, don't care for superhero DnD, and my powergamer friends hate the fact that no matter how great a character is, s/he can still be killed by an arrow. About the only thing that can be said about proponents and opponents of WFRP - generally speaking - is that gamers from both sides of the argument both love and hate the game for opposite reasons.

MortonStromgal
07-03-2010, 11:48 AM
I think he does have a point with trappings. After all the system is so light you would have expected it not to care (ie hand weapon). Personally I don't think its as bad as D&D or Shadowrun but its not as good as resources for White Wolf stuff

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
07-03-2010, 01:22 PM
Our players were always broke in WFRP. Only in DnD can one afford nice gear, therefore, it was never difficult to keep track of ones trappings - there were so few. Why? Because we were always broke and could afford very little. It's this fact about WFRP that makes the game great, imo. Of course, this also tended to turn away players that wanted full plate armor and/or pistol at first career. In the end, keeping track only took about 60 seconds for one could rarely afford the "traveling pack."

When it comes to camping equipment, our players slept under the stars with bedding made from the surrounding growth - if there was any. If it rained, we made makeshift cover from branches and so on, or if we were lucky, found someplace to sleep. This was actually required survival training in boyscouts in the 1970's, at least for us.

Typically, most of the players had no fishing line, leaving the hunting and trapping to those that had experience in that field. The rest would be sol if that particular player was ever killed. WFRP isn't boyscouts. We were seldom prepared, but together, we could make do rather nicely, even it if was hit and miss: there were nights we did starve, but others we did quite well with our animal traps.

Oh man, all this talk of WFRP is getting me motivated for another game. This time being a dungeon crawl . Yes, i do agree with BIGKILLA that a dungeon crawl is probably the most perilous type of adventuring in WFRP... but the promise of gooooold is usually enough for many to give it a go. I've expanded Karak Azgal, and my players are a greedy bunch of adventurers.

BIGKILLA
07-05-2010, 12:38 AM
Our players were always broke in WFRP. Only in DnD can one afford nice gear, therefore, it was never difficult to keep track of ones trappings - there were so few. Why? Because we were always broke and could afford very little. It's this fact about WFRP that makes the game great, imo. Of course, this also tended to turn away players that wanted full plate armor and/or pistol at first career. In the end, keeping track only took about 60 seconds for one could rarely afford the "traveling pack."

When it comes to camping equipment, our players slept under the stars with bedding made from the surrounding growth - if there was any. If it rained, we made makeshift cover from branches and so on, or if we were lucky, found someplace to sleep. This was actually required survival training in boyscouts in the 1970's, at least for us.

Typically, most of the players had no fishing line, leaving the hunting and trapping to those that had experience in that field. The rest would be sol if that particular player was ever killed. WFRP isn't boyscouts. We were seldom prepared, but together, we could make do rather nicely, even it if was hit and miss: there were nights we did starve, but others we did quite well with our animal traps.

Oh man, all this talk of WFRP is getting me motivated for another game. This time being a dungeon crawl . Yes, i do agree with BIGKILLA that a dungeon crawl is probably the most perilous type of adventuring in WFRP... but the promise of gooooold is usually enough for many to give it a go. I've expanded Karak Azgal, and my players are a greedy bunch of adventurers.


Oh if I only lived closer to a group that enjoyed a good ole game of WHFRP

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
07-05-2010, 09:39 AM
Oh if I only lived closer to a group that enjoyed a good ole game of WHFRP

I couldn't agree with you more, BIGKILLA.

Optimusnorm
08-30-2015, 02:08 AM
For a so-called “classless” game, there is a gob-load of “careers” to slog through. For new players, I can only imagine this would be overwhelming, as it still can be to me, and I’ve ran it a number of times. Say what I will about D&D, Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Wizard has a certain simplicity, and even the more current 10 or so class framework with Paladins and such is still a good mix of manageability and variety. Warhammer’s Rat-Catcher and Toll-Keeper, while surely historically accurate, are completely irrelevant and definitely not worthy of being actual significant player career choices, set apart by themselves. There should be maybe a Peasant class (which there is in a later bit) and sub-types given and broken down into things like this if a player wants, but it would still use the same template). This would severely curb the authors’ fetish for careerizing everything under the sun into an adventuring motif, and cut the career part of character creation in half, at LEAST. You could still buy a Small But Vicious Dog as a pet or a special ability or something.


The game doesn't claim to be classless, and clearly states there are careers. Since it's randomly rolled initially and you can (if you are playing realistically) only change into careers that you do in-game) it's hardly overwhelming. Comparing it to D&D is like comparing an Apple with a Melon. They are very different in approach, advancement and play. No one is forced to play either.




Oh boy, a max of 2D10 + 20 for all my stats if I’m a human. Out of 100. So up to 40%. So not quite half. Neat… You know, “gritty” is one thing, but incompetent is another. Combat is already still potentially deadly at any level of achievement, proficiency, experience or armament, so why give me less than a 50/50 shot to hit the broad side of a barn? And don’t say that the enemies and other citizens also have that, that doesn’t help, that just means EVERYBODY will be rolling dice a LOT and saying “Damn I missed AGAIN too, your turn”. I think this was a horrible, HORRIBLE mis-calculation and mistake on the part of the creators. It takes SO long to up stats significantly, and they’re split into either your main stats or your secondary stats. You also have to choose to do that instead of buy abilities.


You do realise that the game has dozens of in-game situational bonuses you can add to those stats (and non-humans can start with higher stats plus some talents increase your stats too)? It's a game of small victories and rewards players who use tactics and equipment rather than their intrinsic ability like some of the other RPGS (which are basically superhero games in fantasy settings). It's meant to be gritty and leaning towards realism. If you don't like that don't play it. Or learn the dozens in in game things you can do like flank, take high ground, ambush, charge, all out attacks etc. If your GM is not giving bonuses for combat creativity you need a better GM.




Yeah it’s 100% but I don’t like it.

So don't play it then - it's very simple.




Couldn't get away from enumerating everything but the ten foot pole and the spikes and pitons, thanks so much D&D, for continuing to infect other games with your anal retentiveness . Nobody can just put "adventuring pack" in a book - every time you make a new character, you have to write down "dagger, traveling clothes, pack, sturdy leather boots, cloak" etc. What a waste of time and effort. I think we can assume some things safely, mmmkay? Do I buy a shovel and pry bar and hand ax and fishing line? What if I need to camp? Oh noes?! Decisions! WFRP - Old World Camping Simulator!

Are people obliged to blindly follow every rule in a book? Can't the players and GM agree to what is important in their game? If they like detailed inventories good for them. If they don't they can use common sense to know what they have.



These aren't like classes, that's what sets WFRP apart from D&D. Your career is what you did BEFORE you started adventuring, not what you're doing now - you've left your old life behind to pursue a new life of seeking fame and riches through adventure! So says the book.

Okay, so why am I advancing in the career's advance scheme and gaining the skills and getting the bonuses for it after I've started playing and am clearly no longer cutting hair as a Barber-Surgeon, but am killing Blood Sedges and cutting Orcs in half? Why, when I "buy" up all my advances and skills, can I exit to a fittingly appropriate step up from that to something else? Am I an adventurer, or am I a Barber Surgeon? You really can't do both, especially not in the Old World. You can't just hang up a sign on your blacksmith shop and that says "Gone Adventuring, be back next month" and stay in business.

You can move to any career fitting what you are currently doing in the game. That is how I have always run Warhammer Fantasy. I also allow for the training of skills and talents in game that are related directly to what they are doing. In one game we had a young scribe who was carried off by Norse raiders and enslaved. She spent several months with them and eventually gained her freedom and their favour. By the time she returned to the Empire she was a Berserker shield maiden of some note and ability after befriending one of their female warriors. The scribe always wanted to be an adventurer after growing up reading of exploits and sagas. Worked out very well. Who says you have to stick with what you like? This comes down to reading gaming books as if they are immutable religious texts.

I always start new characters with all their advances as well so they can just go to whatever fits in-game once they start earning xp.

jpatterson
08-30-2015, 09:25 PM
You can always do lots of things to change rules or ignore rules or make houserules or only vaguely reference them occasionally, with any game, of course. Thie topic is about the rules-as-written and where they seem to me to be fundamentlally flawed in most cases. Of course like anything else it is just personal opinion.

nijineko
08-30-2015, 09:30 PM
From a layman's perspective, based on the conversation so far, it would seem that the only essential difference between wfrp, and something like d&d, is the "high" fantasy. Wfrp sounds like it aims for a more gritty realistic fantasy: it starts you off as an average Joe, and finishes as a somewhat above average Joe - something like Conan perhaps - gritty to the end even after he became emperor (perhaps not the best analogy, but I can't think of any better low-ish fantasy examples off the top of my head); whereas something like d&d aims for high fantasy: Fafrid & the Grey Mouser, Lord of the Rings, and Elric. After all, the basic premise of d&d from pretty much the beginning was to go from a peon and end up as a Lord or King of a realm, or a world bending wizard, or even a demi-god.

And if you were playing d&d in the gygaxian era, the death rate made wfrp look tame.

I take umbrage to only one thing. One does not have to be a power gamer to enjoy high fantasy, and enjoying or even preferring high fantasy does not make one a power gamer. In my experience those who enjoy or prefer are often mislabeled as power gamers. While your experiences may have been actual power gamers thwarted in their munchkining, I advise caution about stereotyping and mislabeling and assuming, just in case.

Optimusnorm
09-01-2015, 09:55 AM
You can always do lots of things to change rules or ignore rules or make houserules or only vaguely reference them occasionally, with any game, of course. Thie topic is about the rules-as-written and where they seem to me to be fundamentlally flawed in most cases. Of course like anything else it is just personal opinion.

Well if it's about rules as written we can find huge flaws in every single system out there can't we? No serious gamer plays RPGs with a blind, near religious devotion to rules - and nearly every RPG I have read states rules are guides and can and should be changed to suit every group's style.

In any case some of the criticism of WHFRPG here are based on not understanding the rules as written.

Optimusnorm
09-01-2015, 12:10 PM
From a layman's perspective, based on the conversation so far, it would seem that the only essential difference between wfrp, and something like d&d, is the "high" fantasy. Wfrp sounds like it aims for a more gritty realistic fantasy: it starts you off as an average Joe, and finishes as a somewhat above average Joe - something like Conan perhaps - gritty to the end even after he became emperor (perhaps not the best analogy, but I can't think of any better low-ish fantasy examples off the top of my head); whereas something like d&d aims for high fantasy: Fafrid & the Grey Mouser, Lord of the Rings, and Elric. After all, the basic premise of d&d from pretty much the beginning was to go from a peon and end up as a Lord or King of a realm, or a world bending wizard, or even a demi-god.

As usual it depends on the D&D world and the GM and Players more than anything else. Also, if you survive in the right career in WFRPG you will be quite substantially above average with the system's 'grit'. Look up Giant Slayers, Assassins or the like...some of them are truly frightening in the setting...but not gods - they can be killed - with luck or with enough enemies.



And if you were playing d&d in the gygaxian era, the death rate made wfrp look tame.

No Argument there. Different versions of D&D had very different gaming experiences in terms of rules. It's really only the more recent incarnations that have essentially superhero type character advancement because it seems that's the most popular with gamers who play D&D so the publishers simply give them what sells.



I take umbrage to only one thing. One does not have to be a power gamer to enjoy high fantasy, and enjoying or even preferring high fantasy does not make one a power gamer. In my experience those who enjoy or prefer are often mislabeled as power gamers. While your experiences may have been actual power gamers thwarted in their munchkining, I advise caution about stereotyping and mislabeling and assuming, just in case.

There are a number of high fantasy genre games that are 'gritty' in terms of the rules (I am assuming you mean Tolkien-like when you mean High Fantasy rather than Robert E. Howard's Conan type of fantasy) . Runequest comes to mind but I am sure there are others. A power gamer is a power gamer regardless of rules and setting. Some rules and settings simply allow for more scope in power gaming.

A modern day, mostly 'realistic' genre World of Darkness or Call of Cthulhu game won't give as much material for power gamers to work their magic as would a D&D 3.5 with all the supplement or a DC Heroes game would of course.