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A Flannel Shirt
05-12-2010, 07:16 PM
Ok, so I'm looking to throw in some more fun for my players and been looking at some vehicle vs character combat.

I just don't get it.

I was going to have the group face a Juggernaut (p200 unleashed). After looking at the stats of the vehicle it will be a slaughter for the group unless I can come up with some clever tactics.

+4 on attack bonuses? Most of my players have a reflex def of 20+ and use the force/deflect at 15+.

Put in a lightsaber to ignore the DR and we are are going to make short work of this thing.

What are some tactics to make this thing more of a threat.

Other than 50 troopers.

Inquisitor Tremayne
05-15-2010, 08:29 PM
I think it really is the 50 troops. The A5 + 50 troops!!?? That is pretty overwhelming. The troops can auto-assist to hit the Force Users and their are enough of them to give the Force Users pause. If you have 5 assisting 1 that is still 9 attacks all at a +10 bonus to hit. Any ranged PCs are only going to be able to do very little damage to the A5.

Not to mention the A5 is big enough it can simply run over any PCs. It IS 6 squares wide, in the right situation that could easily smoosh some PCs!

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-21-2010, 11:53 AM
As we just found out in our DoD game too, anyone getting hit by a vehicle will take at least half damage from the collision. My Jedi was stomped on by an AT-AT! Now she is about to cut the head off of it!

Dytrrnikl
08-25-2010, 08:27 PM
You could be cruel and add the the Juggernaut being sent at the group has armor laced with Cortosis, thus negating the effectiveness of a lightsaber...something I did once just to see the look of shock on the groups face when there resident force user was unable to do much with his universal can opener. If you wanted to really add some oomph, rather than 50 Troopers, make it a squad/unit of juggernauts that faces the group, using the info from, I think Clone Wars Campaign Guide or Rebellion Era Sourcebook. Then see how easily the group takes it down.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-25-2010, 11:22 PM
Yeah, the CL 14 of this AT-AT in DoD should be more like CL 9 since our GM said there weren't any troops aboard. So, it is kinda easy pickings for my Jedi to cut the head off.

A Flannel Shirt
08-30-2010, 12:26 AM
Did you actually just "cut" the head off or did you just keep attacking normally until the HP of the AT-AT was at 0?

If you did just "cut" the head off, how did you rule it?

I am wondering because if you really think about it chopping off limbs of vehicles like AT-STs would make the battles so fast. Basically how would you rule a Jedi declaring he is going to chop off the AT-STs leg, head, etc?

Dytrrnikl
08-30-2010, 03:43 AM
Did you actually just "cut" the head off or did you just keep attacking normally until the HP of the AT-AT was at 0?

If you did just "cut" the head off, how did you rule it?

I am wondering because if you really think about it chopping off limbs of vehicles like AT-STs would make the battles so fast. Basically how would you rule a Jedi declaring he is going to chop off the AT-STs leg, head, etc?


I think I've been fortunate, in that my group recalls the days of West End Games d6 version of Star Wars, where they had a scaling for damage amongst comabtants of different size set-up, eliminating the possibility of things like Lightsaber cutting head of vehicles. I pretty much carried over that line of thought into Wizard's versions of the game. Scaling for size, making it more dificult to disable things like At-STs using character scale weapons, even an iconic one such as a Lightsaber. Or to put it in terms that we saw in movies...in the Empire Strikes Back, Luke was only able to take out a Walker, by cutting into an arguable weak spot, and lobbing some sort of explosive into the thing's belly...he had ample time to hack any one of it's four legs if he so chose and didn't. Why? Lightsabers are good, just not that good. It all comes down to scale.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-30-2010, 03:45 PM
Well, tonight is the night when we figure out the ruling on this. She did cut a hole in the top of the AT-AT and dropped down into it, now she is in the neck. We ruled that the AT-AT only took 1/4 the damage from cutting the hole but she did have to cut through a section of metal hull that had 150 hit points. (pg 151 SECR)

If I were the GM, I think I might require reducing the AT-AT's actual hull points in this situation, since cutting off the head would effectively render the vehicle destroyed or at the very least disabled. So she has about 260 more hull points to slice through!

---------- Post added at 01:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 PM ----------


I think I've been fortunate, in that my group recalls the days of West End Games d6 version of Star Wars, where they had a scaling for damage amongst comabtants of different size set-up, eliminating the possibility of things like Lightsaber cutting head of vehicles. I pretty much carried over that line of thought into Wizard's versions of the game. Scaling for size, making it more dificult to disable things like At-STs using character scale weapons, even an iconic one such as a Lightsaber. Or to put it in terms that we saw in movies...in the Empire Strikes Back, Luke was only able to take out a Walker, by cutting into an arguable weak spot, and lobbing some sort of explosive into the thing's belly...he had ample time to hack any one of it's four legs if he so chose and didn't. Why? Lightsabers are good, just not that good. It all comes down to scale.

That is effectively rendering the vehicle disabled/destroyed, so attacking the legs, I would require, reducing the vehicles full hull points. And considering the AT-ATs were continuously barring down on Echo base, I doubt Luke had that much time to hack at one of the legs to reduce a full 300 hull points. You are looking at probably close to 12 rounds, that is assuming the AT-AT is only taking a single move, if it is double moving Luke probably wouldn't even be able to keep up with it AND attack it, so his best option was to hitch a ride via grappling cable.

My character did not have a grappling cable so she spent a DP to surge on top of the AT-AT and cut her way in.

A Flannel Shirt
08-30-2010, 04:40 PM
I think I've been fortunate, in that my group recalls the days of West End Games d6 version of Star Wars, where they had a scaling for damage amongst comabtants of different size set-up, eliminating the possibility of things like Lightsaber cutting head of vehicles. I pretty much carried over that line of thought into Wizard's versions of the game. Scaling for size, making it more dificult to disable things like At-STs using character scale weapons, even an iconic one such as a Lightsaber. Or to put it in terms that we saw in movies...in the Empire Strikes Back, Luke was only able to take out a Walker, by cutting into an arguable weak spot, and lobbing some sort of explosive into the thing's belly...he had ample time to hack any one of it's four legs if he so chose and didn't. Why? Lightsabers are good, just not that good. It all comes down to scale.

Do you have any #s for your scaling. I remember something about WEG being Xd6 char scale is equal to Xd6 vehicle scale.
What are your conversions?


Well, tonight is the night when we figure out the ruling on this. She did cut a hole in the top of the AT-AT and dropped down into it, now she is in the neck. We ruled that the AT-AT only took 1/4 the damage from cutting the hole but she did have to cut through a section of metal hull that had 150 hit points. (pg 151 SECR)

If I were the GM, I think I might require reducing the AT-AT's actual hull points in this situation, since cutting off the head would effectively render the vehicle destroyed or at the very least disabled. So she has about 260 more hull points to slice through!

---------- Post added at 01:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 PM ----------



That is effectively rendering the vehicle disabled/destroyed, so attacking the legs, I would require, reducing the vehicles full hull points. And considering the AT-ATs were continuously barring down on Echo base, I doubt Luke had that much time to hack at one of the legs to reduce a full 300 hull points. You are looking at probably close to 12 rounds, that is assuming the AT-AT is only taking a single move, if it is double moving Luke probably wouldn't even be able to keep up with it AND attack it, so his best option was to hitch a ride via grappling cable.

My character did not have a grappling cable so she spent a DP to surge on top of the AT-AT and cut her way in.

Just go kill the drivers really quick and take the AT-AT as your own.

So what I get by your post is that regardless of where they are attacking (head, leg, arm) they still need to take the vehicle down all of its HP?

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-30-2010, 07:40 PM
So what I get by your post is that regardless of where they are attacking (head, leg, arm) they still need to take the vehicle down all of its HP?

I say it depends on what the character is doing. If the character is attempting to destroy/disable the vehicle by simply cutting off one of its legs, then yes it must be knocked down to 0 hull points. If the character is simply trying to cut a hole for a way into the vehicle (or out of), then I wouldn't really subtract the vehicles hull points.

Dytrrnikl
08-31-2010, 11:38 AM
Do you have any #s for your scaling. I remember something about WEG being Xd6 char scale is equal to Xd6 vehicle scale.
What are your conversions?

Not so much a conversion as an adaptation to the system. I kept it simple...Table 10-1: Vehicle Sizes, on page 166 of the Core Rulebook lists the size and size modifier. Damage of character scale weapons against vehicles and vehicle weapons against characters is dependent upon the Size Modifier. Essentially for all vehicles up to the very first Colossal category, I add 5 to the size modifier to get the scale modifier. For the largest three Colossal vehicle sizes: Frigate, Cruiser, Station (from smallest to largest) I add 10 per size increase. The scale modifier is taken into account before DR and/or SR when applying damage. Subtract the scale modifier from character scale weapons when used against vehicles; add the scale modifier to damage in addition to the damage dealt by vehicles to characters. For those that think this is overkill or that the DR covers issues with character scale weapons, think about it...Exactly how much damage can a bed bug or mosquito do to an adult human...they're a nuisance at best, and onyl potentially dangerous if left unchecked. Yet we can squash'em flat without much effort. Or, in otherwords, a Lightsaber or a DL-44 ain't going to be very effective against a Corvette, but those turbolasers will pretty much evaporate you and whatever your holding. I've attached an MS word doc (hopefully) with my chart.

SDJThorin
08-31-2010, 05:17 PM
Here's the condensed WEG scale chart:

Scale Chart
Scale Modifier
Character -
Speeder 2D
Walker 4D
Starfighter 6D
Capital 12D
Death Star 24D

Calculate the "Adjusted Modifier" between the two scales.
- A LOWER Scale Attacker against a HIGHER Scale Target:
- Attacker adds to attack roll. Target makes normal dodge.
- Attacker rolls damage normally. Target adds to resist it.

- Note Walkers can not dodge Character Scale

- A HIGHER Scale Attacker against a LOWER Scale Target :
- Attacker rolls a normal attack roll. Target adds to dodge.
- Attacker adds to damage. Target resists it normally.

NB: If an Attacker has a different scale weapon in use, then
use that Scale to determine the Modifier.ie: A CHARACTER shooting at a SPEEDER:
The Attacker has an easier time hitting the Target, but the Attacker has a much harder time causing any damage to it.
ie: A SPEEDER shooting at a CHARACTER:
The Attacker will do WAY more damage if they hit, but the Target has an easier time dodging out of the way.
It also means that something as large as a capital ship just can't hit a single character.
(It can still obliterate the entire area, however it just can't find and target a single character in it)

I also use this idea in my SW:SE games.

A Flannel Shirt
10-12-2010, 10:53 PM
Do vehicles provoke AoO?
Seems silly that they would just sit still.

lockend
01-23-2011, 03:51 AM
sorry to bother you, but could you further explain the "scale" system you have there, like say a starfighter is making an atk run on a character, are they even still in the same scale? (is a -20 applied anywhere?)

Dytrrnikl
01-24-2011, 10:13 AM
sorry to bother you, but could you further explain the "scale" system you have there, like say a starfighter is making an atk run on a character, are they even still in the same scale? (is a -20 applied anywhere?)

If you are referring to the Star Wars Saga system. There really isn't a difference between character scale and vehicle scale, just a size modifier that applies to BAB, Reflex Defense, and Initiative and Pilot checks made the occupants of the vehicle.

In the WEG d6 system, the bigger something is, the easier it is to get hit but the harder it is to damage. The scale system does't translate as well to Star Wars Saga. Technically, under Saga rules a Tie Fighter (a size Large vehicle) is still just considered Large by a medium-sized character, and would suffer a modifier to hit anything smaller than itself, that's about it. Also, when blending characters and vehicles in combat, I forget which book, they talk about vehicles being more like terrain for characters. I didn't like the way they handled size in Saga, henced why I made a houserule adaptation of the WEG d6 scale rules.

If you are using my houseruled adapted scale format from WEG d6 to Saga system, everything is still under one scale chart, however, their is an attack modifier and a scale modifier. The attack modifier caps at -10 and applies to all attacks. So a starfighter, lets say a Tie Fighter, which is considered Huge according to Saga system, would suffer a -2 TAB modifier to attack anything the same size as itself or smaller. The scale modifier, which caps at 40 applies against all attacks made from anything smaller on the scale chart. Thus a Tie Fighter (according to my chart) would suffer a -2 to attack, but gain a bonus to damage and DR, against anything smaller than itself of +6. It's not much extra damage or DR, especially considering that, using the TIE fighter, Quad Laser Cannons deal 4d10x2 on every hit. With my scale modifier to damage, a successful attack run by the Tie Fighter made against a character or vehicle smaller than itself, would deal (4d10+6) x2 damage, dealing from 20 - 92 points of damage.

I hope this helps. It does add an extra measure of lethality to combats, so you may wish to stick with the RAW. Me, I prefer lethal games. I hope this helps. If not ask questions and I'll try to clarify.

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-24-2011, 10:45 PM
The size modifier to Reflex Defense is meant to represent this. The EU of Star Wars has also shown that there is little difference between vehicle scale weapons and character scale weapons EXCEPT for turbolasers. Which is why Jedi are seen deflecting vehicle weapon fire.

Dytrrnikl
01-25-2011, 09:20 AM
My own houserule:

I have no problems with a Jedi deflecting things from vehicles, provided it does not deal more than 3d10x2 damage. Damage that is 4d10x2 or greater, the Jedi may still attempt to deflect it, however, while it is not an area attack targeting one character, when I roll damage, I treat it as though it is an area attack. SO, unless the Jedi has negate energy, they're still going to get hit with something.

If I was using the Destiny mechanic, I might allow the expenditure of a Destiny Point to deflect anything but a turbolaser. However, after seeing the Destiny mechanic in play, for me they are the tool of a (my apologies in advance) munchkin, weeny gamer who looks for EVERY advantage and tool they can find to break the system...teh destiny mechanic does just that, BREAKS Saga.

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-25-2011, 10:27 PM
Actually it is just the Destiny Point to auto-crit that breaks Saga. I have since houseruled that away and they are much more useful. I have also taken to giving my players 2 DPs per level to encourage them to use them more often. The most common are avoid crit and act out of turn, but at higher levels there are several abilities that key off of using a DP, and it just was not feasible when every player would just save them up for auto-crits.

They also allow the extraordinary happen for characters that are not Force Sensitive, similar to what we see in the EU.

Dytrrnikl
01-26-2011, 11:48 AM
Even with the removal of the auto-crit, DPs are still too much. I want my players to have extraordinary moments without the use of a highly suspect mechanic. I go out of my way to present opportunities for it as a GM. I've found that I like really gritty games free of mechanical trump cards.

A houserule due to lack of DPs, is that any ability, feat, or talent that has a DP requirement cannot be taken, and DP boosts to force powers, feats, or what have you, just don't exist.