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ignimbrite
04-21-2010, 01:55 PM
So a couple of efficient (power) players are asking if they find a plane where time runs faster than the material plane. This is so they can spend 40 days crafting items and it doesn't actually take 40 days. That aside they are also trying to craft for more than 8 hours a day because restoration type spells remove the fatigue associated with overworking ...

Sooooo knowing that they are maxed/efficient PCs ...
1. Does anyone have detailed knowledge about the legality of crafting for 16+ hours a day? One is a druid and I don't think they have to sleep per se to get spells back, they just pray, right?

2. I have been thinking of giving them access to the demiplane:
a) in exchange for a powerful item (like the Hand of Vecna they just acquired)
b) have the actual flow of time be random so they don't come out ahead
c) as part of a trap to either:
i) destroy some of their equipment, a la spellguant or nightwalker
ii) have a pit fiend show up to get rid of the wizards imp familiar (have the imp promoted to steel devil) - using Imbue familiar spell the imp is able to cast >5 spells a day and this means the wizard is getting of 2+ spells a round. On a Time stop it's about 6-10 spells near the top of initiative and it is really starting to suck. Anyway enough ranting.

Any help/advice would be appreciated on those two issues would be appreciated.

yukonhorror
04-21-2010, 02:27 PM
in reality, you would want a plane where time flowed slower. Example. there are 48 hours (twice as slow) in a demiplane day and 24 in material day. The amount of hours they could spend in that day are double of what they could get in the material plane, so it would be done in half the time.

But, I would make the time random so they don't come out ahead. OR, because it goes slower, a lot of nasty things happen back home, like the evil guy massing his army in the amount of real time.

Blydden
04-21-2010, 07:45 PM
You could send them off on a quest to get the gate key to open a portal into a pocket dimension suitable for their needs.

The catch? Make it take long enough so that: X + (Z/Y) = Z

Where X is the amount of time they spend on the quest,
Y is the amount of time they craft in the pocket dimension (divided by N which is the rate of how much faster time goes in the pocket dimension) [A.K.A. If it would have taken 4 days to craft their items, and the pocket dimension goes twice as fast, then Z=4 and Y=2, resulting in 4 / 2 = 2]
And Z is the amount of time it would have taken if they just made their items in the natural world instead. Thus 4 = Z.

So. If it takes 12 hours (Z) to make their items in the natural world, then have the quest take 6 (X) hours, and then since time would go twice as fast [2] (Y), and it would take 12 hours to make their items in the natural world (Z) you end up with this equation:

6 + (12/2) = 12
or simplified into:
6 + 6 = 12

So, they just wasted a bunch of time on their quest and ended up not getting ahead time wise at all. Plus, an evil monster could have been conquering something while they were in the pocket dimension.

tesral
04-21-2010, 11:15 PM
Seriously, either do it or don't. Trying to figure out how to screw the players while "granting" their desire smacks of DM vs. Player. Think about it. What is the real advantage here? The characters spend the same about of time on the crafting, they just decrease the amount of prime time they spend. (BTW it is faster not slower. Say 48 per 24 hours.)

As to the crafting rules, the hard limit of 8 hours is not totally reasonable. Bend a little, give them ten.

wizarddog
04-21-2010, 11:58 PM
Personally, it just seems silly to enforce time in crafting if it occurs on downtime between adventures. It is not like the PC's are aging. You let them take all the time off to craft if they want. If they are in a time constraint campaign, then they shouldn't waste their time trying to find pocket planes to speed up crafting.

And even if they want to craft all their stuff, I would reduce future treasure acquisition to compensate if they went over the recommended wealth level.

Blydden
04-22-2010, 01:28 AM
Trying to figure out how to screw the players while "granting" their desire smacks of DM vs. Player. Think about it.

Just giving him a formula for what he asked for, didn't say I liked it. DMs should never penalize players for creativity.

TheYeti1775
04-22-2010, 01:14 PM
There are plenty of consequences with time differences in planes that you can pull all sorts of stuff out.

Page 11 of Manual of the Planes 3E.

Quick Overview without Cut & Pasting it.

Time
Normal Time - Prime Material is at same rate.
Flowing Time - Rates are different. Either Faster or Slower. The example they use is 1 Round Prime Material equaling 1 Year In Alternate Plane. Or Vice Versa.
Erratic Time - Nice %% table going from 1 day Prime to 1 round Erratic to just the opposite.
Timeless - Astral is an example

I will include the sidebar note they have though about it all.


TIME ALONG THE GREAT WHEEL
Within the D&D cosmology, time flows at a normal rate, and all planes have normal time trait. Planes with the flowing time trait or the erratic time trait change the game too dramatically for most players' tastes.
The only exception to this is the Astral Plane, which is a timeless plane for purposes of aging, hunger, thirst, and natural healing.


Personally, I would give it to them.
They are coming up with ways to increase their effectiveness without immediate consequences.
Though there could be a heavy price if they are trying to form a pocket plane with the flowing time power.

Far as consequences, thats for you as DM to decide.
For me, most of the guys I game with would love the Flowing Time Pocket Plane but would also weigh in as to the potential for bad it could cause. I use the rule, you use it the bad/good guys can use it. So far that keeps a lot of super min/maxing out of the equation for groups I play with.

And for shorter lived races, it could cause a great effect on how long they live as a whole.

If I remember right there was a nice section about it in the 1E DMG. I can't find my PDF copy on my portable drive right now. Would have to look it up in the hard copy at home after work.

ignimbrite
04-22-2010, 02:11 PM
wow lots of replies and fast :)

So a few thoughts/comments:
1. I can understand saying that 8 hours is the normal for crafting, and maybe 10 per day is reasonable but what is unreasonable? 11? 14? 20?
2. And as for DM vs Player, there is and there isn't an element of that here. I would like to accommodate creative thinking (hence my thinking that I would allow them), but nothing that useful should come free of charge hence options a and c (both courtesy of Vecna cult they have killed members of in the previous months); option b was just for flavour (a mad mage makes a demiplane and thinks it's time flow is faster than material plane). I mean as far as I know the only way to make a demiplane is with the seed demiplane ability from a level 10 PrC and even then I think it says the demiplane is at normal time flow. I felt that outright saying "No, there is no plane available, even with your +40 to knowledge the planes" seemed a tad unreasonable.
3. There is a time limit on the amount of days they can spend crafting, but it is long - they just don't know how long. So they are trying to get around the usual rules to make an 80 day item in much less time - hence the whole 'I craft for 16 hours a day and we want to find a place where time flows faster compared to the material plane'.

ignimbrite
04-26-2010, 12:44 AM
So I take it that nobody knows of a source that mentions a plane where time is variable then?
I suppose I should just say no. In the long run I think it might be better, as then there is no way that the evil NPCs can use exactly the same thing against the PCs.

tesral, did you really think that option 2a felt like player vs DM, or was that more of a general view?

tesral
04-26-2010, 09:22 AM
More a general view on the whole "gotya" theme. I see no problem with making them pay for access. I do have a problem with setting up elaborate "gotya" scenarios. You pay the freight then find out that it hurts you. Kind of like giving a kid candy on a string you yank back.

The basic theme that the DM should never give any player an advantage that does not have a large dose of suck attached. Either give the advantage or do not give the advantage.

I think clever ideas should be rewarded, not punished.

TheYeti1775
04-26-2010, 11:18 AM
So I take it that nobody knows of a source that mentions a plane where time is variable then?
I did, page 11 of 3E Manual of the Planes


More a general view on the whole "gotya" theme. I see no problem with making them pay for access. I do have a problem with setting up elaborate "gotya" scenarios. You pay the freight then find out that it hurts you. Kind of like giving a kid candy on a string you yank back.

The basic theme that the DM should never give any player an advantage that does not have a large dose of suck attached. Either give the advantage or do not give the advantage.

I think clever ideas should be rewarded, not punished.
It's fine awarding the clever idea. It's when they abuse the clever idea repeatedly that it gets used against them.

In this case, I think it's fine and dandy to give them the plane they want. They just have to take into account what plane they find and who already lives there. If they are powerful enough to create their own Demi-plane than I would say its a world of their own making.

I just always used the rule of thumb if you can do it the other guys can too if they think about it, or see it once.

ignimbrite
04-28-2010, 08:42 AM
I did, page 11 of 3E Manual of the Planes


Thanks Yeti, but I'm looking for a mention of a specific plane/demiplane with variable time. Not "variable time does exist, but it is not advised to use it"

tesral
04-28-2010, 10:46 PM
I did, page 11 of 3E Manual of the Planes


It's fine awarding the clever idea. It's when they abuse the clever idea repeatedly that it gets used against them.

In this case, I think it's fine and dandy to give them the plane they want. They just have to take into account what plane they find and who already lives there. If they are powerful enough to create their own Demi-plane than I would say its a world of their own making.

I just always used the rule of thumb if you can do it the other guys can too if they think about it, or see it once.

I fail to see how the idea has yet to "be abused". Of course if one person/party can do it someone else can. Frankly I find the "one side" language a bit disturbing as it also smacks of DM vs. players.

And lets face facts. NPCs have all the advantages in crafting. Time, money XP, I have yet to meet the DM that tracks any of that for NPCs so they have an inequal burden on PCs. I applaude any efforts by the PCs to level the playing field.

Frankly the whole D&D 3.5 "Players against the rules" is bugging the hell out of me. The system, deliberately or not, has different rules for NPCs and for PCs. I really dislike that.

TheYeti1775
04-29-2010, 02:00 PM
I fail to see how the idea has yet to "be abused". Of course if one person/party can do it someone else can. Frankly I find the "one side" language a bit disturbing as it also smacks of DM vs. players.

And lets face facts. NPCs have all the advantages in crafting. Time, money XP, I have yet to meet the DM that tracks any of that for NPCs so they have an inequal burden on PCs. I applaude any efforts by the PCs to level the playing field.

Frankly the whole D&D 3.5 "Players against the rules" is bugging the hell out of me. The system, deliberately or not, has different rules for NPCs and for PCs. I really dislike that.

By abuse, I'm talking if the tactic is over used.
I.e. They succeed in this solution, and they now have it as SOP for any problem regarding time.
Not so much Player vs DM, its more of a don't abuse the rules in either direction effect for both Players and DMs.
What the players are searching for here is essentially a Timestop of weeks versus taking the time and crafting at a normal pace.
Personally I would allow the Alternate Plane. If it's an existing one, than I populate it accordingly. If it is one of their own creation, guess what they get to populate it.

Dimthar
04-29-2010, 08:48 PM
As far as Role-Playing, traveling to another "Plane" where times moves faster is very good when you want the PCs to raise levels and gain power to go back home and kick the Villain's behind while not disturbing the main plot (e.g. In the "Real World" they were only gone for 1 week instead 8 months)