PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5th edition predictions



Dark
04-10-2010, 07:38 AM
I think they'll skip 4.5e and go straight to 5th in just a few years time promoting it as simply a new edition which is after all what it will be. We all know it's going to happen the question is when?

fmitchell
04-10-2010, 02:47 PM
The ".5" thing was a marketing and public relations gaffe, but I don't think 5e is coming anytime soon. 4e, whatever its merits or flaws, does have two things going for it:

1. DDI, complete with a "living rulebook" for paying customers. This allows WotC to patch rules as they go, without a disruptive next edition.

2. For us dead tree worshippers, the Players Handbooks and errata, provide a continuous set of "refinements" and errata. (Same thing with the DMGs, for "skill challenges" and other contentious DM-specific rules and tools.)

Also, given its "simple rules, many exceptions" philosophy, I'd bet that we don't see major problems until the number of exceptions becomes simply overwhelming and/or blatantly self-contradictory. I don't see that happening for five years at least.

5e, when it comes, will be just as disruptive as 4e.

(Compare to different editions of other games, where new editions typically remain somewhat backward compatible, from Call of Cthulhu's essentially unchanged mechanics through the small but necessary changes of GURPS and Mongoose's RuneQuest to "relaunches" like Traveller and Earthdawn which add or remove extra bits to the same core concepts. But that's another thread.)

Slipstream
04-10-2010, 05:12 PM
5e will have playable unicorns out of the gate. You heard it here first.

Dark
04-10-2010, 05:20 PM
:biggrin: Sweet!

mrken
04-10-2010, 10:35 PM
I predict WotC will not make any more editions. They have learned their lessons and will instead bring back all the past editions as new games. ;)

Crom on his Mountain
04-11-2010, 12:25 AM
If WotC still owns the rights, I predict suck.

Dark
04-11-2010, 07:57 AM
Hey you never know they may surprise us. :laugh:

kirksmithicus
04-11-2010, 11:33 PM
5e will have playable unicorns out of the gate. You heard it here first.

Way cool. I want a sparkly rainbow unicorn, with the death ray laser horn feat. :biggrin:

5e will be down-loaded straight to your brain, and it will make it mushy.

MortonStromgal
04-12-2010, 10:39 PM
I'll actually take this seriously.

7 years from now will be release +/- 2 years based on sale declines

5e will move to hexes to better integrate with Heroscape.
Heroscape will be what people used to know as the basic box for new players but still keep its skirmish army going.
D&D will then build and expand upon these basic skirmish rules.
Combat will be faster
Healing Surges will be less in number
They will keep the current book format of 9 core books and power books that have some powers for multiple classes
Skill Challeges will be better developed
Options for "roleplaying" skills will be back in
There will be some kind of Social Networking/Subscription RPGA model. (probably = epic fail)
They will try to get back into Toys R Us.

WhiteTiger
04-13-2010, 11:34 AM
Mostly agree with MortonStromgal only slightly snarkier...

The U.S. is getting dumber and dumber by the second. WOTC will come out with a new edition that is reduced to roll a die / check chart / inflict fixed damage... rinse & repeat. Healing will have a fixed sliding chart as well as skill checks. This new version will marketed for 1st graders so that they can enslave them early with pretty figs and sparkly dice. It will have a direct tie-in with whatever the most popular gaming board system that Hasbro has at the time (could be Heroscape). Credit Card required to gain access to the "advanced" stuff and the online network.

We are being told that we don't want to think and we buy into that way of thinking every day.

Go to Walmart and get your copy today !!! :twitch:

Dark
04-14-2010, 06:05 AM
Very well put Whitetiger and thank you for spelling it out so eloquently.

TheYeti1775
04-19-2010, 03:53 PM
I'll actually take this seriously.

7 years from now will be release +/- 2 years based on sale declines

5e will move to hexes to better integrate with Heroscape.
Heroscape will be what people used to know as the basic box for new players but still keep its skirmish army going.
D&D will then build and expand upon these basic skirmish rules.
Combat will be faster
Healing Surges will be less in number
They will keep the current book format of 9 core books and power books that have some powers for multiple classes
Skill Challeges will be better developed
Options for "roleplaying" skills will be back in
There will be some kind of Social Networking/Subscription RPGA model. (probably = epic fail)
They will try to get back into Toys R Us.

Think ya nailed it.

Think your timeline is off though.

I'm going to shoot for 2012/2013 for the advertisments to begin for a 5E.
Nothing really scientific about it. It will be fully compatible with 4E much the same way 1E & 2E were. But the powers changed just enough to require new books for the hard copy folks. And ease of adding to their online system. Simple change the powers there, and not support the older version of them. Instantly forces upgrades to all those that depend on the Character Builders and what not they offer.

Though they might split the line somewhat. Rendering a Basic and Advanced Version.

mrken
04-19-2010, 04:26 PM
I think 5th ed. will be totally online. It will take over DDO. Instead of having to buy a new book every month it will just be $39.99 a month and a patch every month. Nothing changes except WotC profit margin goes up as they will only have to only have to produce PDF's and no one will be able to play unless they subscribe with an automatic monthly charge. If you ever think about canceling your bank account you will not be able to get your old character back and will have to start over at level one.

Dark
04-20-2010, 04:20 AM
Gods I hope not. :(

Farcaster
04-20-2010, 01:31 PM
I think 5th ed. will be totally online. It will take over DDO. Instead of having to buy a new book every month it will just be $39.99 a month and a patch every month. Nothing changes except WotC profit margin goes up as they will only have to only have to produce PDF's and no one will be able to play unless they subscribe with an automatic monthly charge. If you ever think about canceling your bank account you will not be able to get your old character back and will have to start over at level one.

Though your prediction is an over the top exaggeration, I do agree (and hope) that the next edition of Dungeons and Dragons will have a very strong online component. We have already seen that with the D&DI magazine and tools, and they have already experimented with putting out entire classes and suites of powers that are distributed only through D&DI. The next edition, when it comes, is very likely to expand on this idea. 4th edition could have had an even stronger online component itself, if Wizards of the Coast hadn't missed the mark so horribly with the Character Visualizer, Dungeon Builder, and Digital Table that they promised and never delivered.

My hope is that they learn from these mistakes and come out swinging with the next revision. And indeed, I think they have to adapt to the changing landscape of the gaming audience and technology if they want to remain relevant in the coming years. Rather than resist this change, I think we aught to embrace it, lest we watch our hobby fade to utter obscurity.

Matt James
04-28-2010, 06:54 PM
Farcaster is spot on. When 5th edition comes out, it will probably be (in my opinion) a completely digital initiative that affords players the opportunity to interface with the world in ways they have never before. That being said, it will not be like your traditional MMO. It will probably involve VTC (video teleconferencing) technologies, combined with new fun quirky aspects (USB/RFI operated dice roller; where you still roll a d20 and the result is calculated based on the side it lands on- this is not so futuristic).

At the core, it will support people still coming together to play a common game- not unlike game-nights where Monopoly is still played. Either way, the game will have 100% digital support for the new wave of small devices like the iPad, et al.

When it comes, it comes. For now, I am enjoying 4th edition and assume I will continue to do so.

Blydden
04-30-2010, 04:43 AM
There will be no 5e. The world ends on December 22, 2012 anyway.

Ok, in a less prophetic tone...

5e will have more of an online factor. (At least I hope so.) I would have so loved loved loved that online Dungeon Builder thing. I mean Wizards of the Coast hyped it up so darn much! Excuse me, I need a moment to cry...

*One Moment Later*

Alright, where was I?...Oh yes. Next thing's next. I am 100% certain that they are going to alter the magic item system, as well as the ritual system. God only knows what they will do with that...although I do have an excerpt from an extra-special interview of James Wyatt from DungeonMastering.com! ;) (see below)

One thing I am hoping for is the reintroduction of the d100. God I love me some d100s!

...That's about it. God I love 4th edition. I wish it wouldn't change so I wouldn't have to buy more books. But, I am sure 5th edition > 4th edition in the end...and if I don't like it, I can troll on the chat like the people who say "3.5e is better than 4e" except like "4e is better than 5e", even though I will be very very wrong but I will just keep deluding myself until 6e comes out. :)

God I love P&PG.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DM: Last question. If you were going to start work tomorrow on 5th edition, what would you change?
JW: *long pause* Itís funny, that question used to send me into a tizzy. It was like when we were in the middle of remodeling our kitchen and my wife would say ďwhen we get around to remodeling the bathrooms-Ē AHHH! I donít want to think about the bathrooms! Iím still working on the kitchen. Iíve since grown beyond that and part of being in R&D is thinking about what comes next.
I wouldnít change the big picture. There are little things I would change. The way we are approaching updates to the game now is releasing errata and rules updates all the time so the game is always growing and changing. We can tweak things as we go. Every once in a while things come that we say ďoh gee, it would be nice if we could fix that but it will have to wait until 5th editionĒ because it is too big of a change. Iím trying to think if I can remember any of them off the top of my head. The point is the changes we would make would not be on the scale of change we made from 3rd to 4th. I expect when we do 5th edition some day it will be in line with the continuity of where 4th edition is now. We would probably tweak the math here and there. We might- hmmmÖ *long pause*
DM: What about rituals? Would you change rituals? Because that would be high on my list.
JW: Yeah, Iíd probably change rituals. *pause*
Magic items! Iím not very happy with how the magic items system came out. Tracking daily uses is awkward. The number of slots the characters makes it easy to fill up on too many items and there are too many items in the game that could use a nerfing. So players who are really pay attention to that sort of thing can make characters that are really just broken, primarily through the item system. Probably because of legacy, magic items are trying to do too much. Up through 3rd edition the things that made a fighter cool were magic items. Now heís got all these powers and the magic items are competing in the same space. At higher level in particular, crowding powers out. That would probably be the top thing on my list to fix.
DM: Would you change ability scores? The scale based off rolling 3d6 when really you just need the modifier?
JW: I went into the 4th edition design process assuming we were going to do that. It was one of the things that I kept coming back to in the design. We as a department talked a lot about the things that penetrated the pop culture. When The Onion (http://www.theonion.com/content/index) can write a headline ďBill Gates gives self 18 charismaĒ, some significant number of people understand what that means. If we change the game so there is no such thing as an 18 Charisma anymore and instead he gives himself a +4 Charisma, it puts a distance between the people who used to play it and the people who play it now. One more barrier of communication between those people.
Itís funny because you will still see something like Wil Wheaton twittering something about failing his will save. But we never had will saves before 3rd edition. Thatís a fairly recent introduction to the game that is now gone. So I will say something like ďthe chex mix attacked my will. I am now dazed and immobilized (save ends both). With my will saves Iíll just be standing here eating foreverĒ. Hopefully the people who follow me understand that but it doesnít have the same penetration yet.

The other thing about ability scores instead of just modifiers is I think thereís still some granularity to putting an even or odd number in your score. I donít know if thatís worth keeping them in or not. Other than that it is just the legacy.

[For the full interview]
{Part 1: http://www.dungeonmastering.com/interviews/the-james-wyatt-interrogation-part-1 }
{Part 2: http://www.dungeonmastering.com/interviews/the-james-wyatt-interrogation-part-2 }

MortonStromgal
05-11-2010, 11:15 PM
T

One thing I am hoping for is the reintroduction of the d100. God I love me some d100s!



Thats what Runequest is for, or if you want to get really crazy Rolemaster! :biggrin:

Blydden
05-12-2010, 03:57 AM
Ooh! Maybe while I am ranting about 5e I can buy those 2 systems in the meantime! ^_^

Lord Soth
05-12-2010, 01:17 PM
Unfortunately, i believe that the roleplaying aspect will be taken out entirely, or at least minimalized to the point of being obscure. Taking note of all the accesories that i've seen at the gaming tables, the way things are progressing, they are two steps away from Descent or Heroquest....(which by the way, is more like roleplaying than some of the systems out there.)

I've noticed that people will always be resistant to something new...and cling to older editions, seeing nothing wrong with what they have currently. (I still enjoy VHS!) :lol: But having lived through the excitement of a new edition, only to be let down so utterly...i'm glad that there are those who continue to police the dust from their 2e boxed settings.

But perhaps, with the introduction of Dark Sun, (and perhaps Dragonlance, from what i've heard) perhaps WotC realizes their folly...maybe they'll read the fan mail of all players who are upset at 4e, and perhaps playtest systems before they are released....maybe they'll change their name back to TSR, and tell Hasbro to take a walk...write for the gamers, and abandon all hope of profit by charging large amounts of money for products.

Sure...

TheYeti1775
05-12-2010, 02:39 PM
(I still enjoy VHS!) :lol:

I still have a working Beta machine in my house along with 8 Track and vinyl records.

Dark
05-13-2010, 04:31 AM
Unfortunately, i believe that the roleplaying aspect will be taken out entirely, or at least minimized to the point of being obscure. Taking note of all the accessories that I've seen at the gaming tables, the way things are progressing, they are two steps away from Descent or Heroquest....(which by the way, is more like role playing than some of the systems out there.)

I've noticed that people will always be resistant to something new...and cling to older editions, seeing nothing wrong with what they have currently. (I still enjoy VHS!) :lol: But having lived through the excitement of a new edition, only to be let down so utterly...i'm glad that there are those who continue to police the dust from their 2e boxed settings.

But perhaps, with the introduction of Dark Sun, (and perhaps Dragonlance, from what I've heard) perhaps WotC realizes their folly...maybe they'll read the fan mail of all players who are upset at 4e, and perhaps playtest systems before they are released....maybe they'll change their name back to TSR, and tell Hasbro to take a walk...write for the gamers, and abandon all hope of profit by charging large amounts of money for products.

Sure...

It sure would be nice if for once they did take the time and listen to those who spend their hard earned jink , but why do that? :confused: Ah well they haven't listened yet so why start now?

Matt James
05-13-2010, 05:10 AM
They do listen- it just happens that there is a larger, more audable, voice telling them otherwise :p

When I have an itch to play 1e AD&D, I play 1e AD&D. Play what makes you happy and you don't need to worry about the rest.

Dark
05-13-2010, 05:16 PM
Oh I agree with you on that in fact I know quite a bit who do as well.

Robperez
05-17-2010, 08:47 PM
I agree with Matt

There is no point in focusing with newer and and shiny editions. If you already spent all the money on a set edition and all your players like it. Just stick with it add some house rules and play on!! I'm definatelly not a fan of online RPGs. The reason I like pen and paper games is that I get to interact with people on a table and have fun while playing a cool game. I dont want to sit at home and play from my chair with a cold computer looking at a screen. That's what videogames are for.

Dante_Ravenkin
07-21-2010, 09:16 PM
I know I'm replying to an old post, but I agree with others who have said that 5e will be mostly combat oriented, with very little role-playing. I find 4e is like that now....

On the flip side, if WotC realizes how many long time D&D fans they lost to the overly simplistic 4e, they may, Gods forbid, attempt to acquire Paizo and/or Pathfinder and re-tool that as D&D 5e.

Matt James
07-22-2010, 05:07 AM
if WotC realizes how many long time D&D fans they lost to the overly simplistic 4e...

This right here caught my attention. Is it a requirement for a system to be complex and burdensome in order to qualify as a quality RPG? :confused:

Q-man
07-22-2010, 05:40 AM
I know I'm replying to an old post, but I agree with others who have said that 5e will be mostly combat oriented, with very little role-playing. I find 4e is like that now.

I'm having trouble understanding this. How exactly can rules exclude role-playing? If you wanted to you could role-play a game of Candy Land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candy_land), it'd be a little strange but entirely possible.

Just because the rulebooks focus on combat doesn't mean that you have to interpret them entirely as a strategy miniatures game. There aren't many rules for what can and can't happen in a social situation, so building vast rules for them doesn't make much sense, so the rulebooks cover an area where rules do make sense in order to have some modicum of balance to it.

Its my opinion that if you're playing a table-top game where the rules prevent role playing, then you're playing it wrong.

Dante_Ravenkin
07-22-2010, 10:39 AM
Is it a requirement for a system to be complex and burdensome in order to qualify as a quality RPG? :confused:

No, absolutely not. And I never said I didn't think D&D 4e was a quality RPG. But personally I find it far simpler than previous editions. I got my Core rulebook set at launch, and one of my gaming friends asked what it was like. All I could say was "Well, it plays a lot like Heroclix."

Yes, you can add RPG elements into the game, but you can't deny the fact that all classes are built for damage and lots of it. And the overall system is crafted with an emphasis on Combat and miniatures over role-playing. That was the main reason I never played Warhammer as a kid (or now, as an adult), I dislike when a game requires so many extra purchases to enjoy.

That said, I've got all my D&D 4e books, miniatures, screens, adventures etc etc. lol

I guess my opinion of 4e boils down to who I'm playing it with, and why. I've ran games that were role-playing oriented, and we found the rules and suggestions lacking. But for quick, satisfying combat, it can't be beat. And even though I, personally dislike it's simplicity, it's like the gateway drug of RPGs. The system is so easy for new players to grasp, that they end up enjoying RPGs when they would otherwise not be interested. For that, it's great.

fmitchell
07-22-2010, 11:15 PM
How exactly can rules exclude role-playing?

They can't, but they can fail to support various modes of role-playing. There's no direct support for investigative scenarios or political intrigue. Even 1st level characters are powerful and resilient to the point that horror is extremely hard to pull off. Adventurers apparently don't have day jobs or communities, a rich source of plot hooks, just vague "backgrounds". (Contrast this to Call of Cthulhu, Amber Diceless RPG, and RuneQuest, known for investigation, intrigue, horror, and culture-driven adventures.)

The rules that do exist can also distract and detract from said modes. If players spend an hour or more in detailed combat, that's an hour that doesn't really advance the plot (beyond "bad guys die/get captured/escape/win"). The rest of the story is "just role-playing", with occasional rolls against coarse-grained and incomplete skills.

I decided to pass on 4e after a short campaign: the only parts I liked were those I could do just as easily with a free download from the net. YMMV.

Matt James
07-23-2010, 08:43 AM
Granted. 4e is not an investigative/sleuth RPG.

Q-man
07-23-2010, 10:23 AM
Adventurers apparently don't have day jobs or communities, a rich source of plot hooks, just vague "backgrounds".

So I gotta ask again, what exactly do you mean? 4E doesn't have any jobs specifically, but there's nothing stopping you from RPing mucking out stables or working the forge. Backgrounds in 4E come in two varieties though. You can write a detailed story that explains your characters lineage and history leading up to the campaign if you want, which are always awesome for plot hooks. This is outside of the game mechanics though, but the rules do provide another method.

You can choose from an assortment of Background options out of the rulebooks. Each one of these would associate your character to some group or region and provide an associated mechanical bonus. This does exactly what you seemed to want, puts your character into a community which can then be used as a plot hook.

As an aside these Background options are expanded upon in the D&D Insider content. They also include a selection of character options that you can take only if you have a specific background option. Which allows the player to draw even more from the community they are associated with. The core rulebooks don't do this, but the campaign guides begin to add these options a bit, but not as much as the D&D Insider articles.


The rules that do exist can also distract and detract from said modes. If players spend an hour or more in detailed combat, that's an hour that doesn't really advance the plot (beyond "bad guys die/get captured/escape/win"). The rest of the story is "just role-playing", with occasional rolls against coarse-grained and incomplete skills.

Here again I need to point out options in the rules that would address your problem. 4E introduced Skill Challenges which are non-combat encounters where the players need to puzzle through some scenario. This could be an elaborate trap room, negotiating with some lord, or diffusing some evil ritual.

By themselves they aren't very exciting, for years GM's have already handled these sort of things in their games already which make these superfluous. What I see in 4E is a set of rules that allow you to make these scenarios mix better right into the combat. Now you can have evil minions pouring out of the evil portal the party is trying to close, and the rules give you a mechanic by which you can merge the role-play actions into the combat and everything flows more seamlessly.

One of the big failures in how WotC handled the skill challenges is that they fail to use them like this. Instead all of their modules seem to make them stand alone encounters, which works but it always feels forced in the sessions I've been a part of. If they showcased them as centerpieces in combat encounters I think they'd be more effective at the game table.

Farcaster
07-23-2010, 10:16 PM
Yes, you can add RPG elements into the game, but you can't deny the fact that all classes are built for damage and lots of it. And the overall system is crafted with an emphasis on Combat and miniatures over role-playing.

All classes' powers are built to be used in combat, yes. Although, I wouldn't say they are all focused towards doing lots of damage, but rather that the class itself brings something useful to the battlemat. I struggled with this idea a little at first too, but honestly, do you really want the 3.5e model of taking a big hit on your combat usefulness if you built your character to be more socially oriented? So, during combat, you sit around board because you can't keep up with Joe-the-Fighter, and during social situations, everyone sits quiet because they can't keep up with Fruit-Loops-the-Bard.

So, the approach that was taken in 4e was to concentrate on making all the classes useful in battle, while also making skills easier to keep up with for all classes. At the same time, instead of having to give up valuable skill training to represent crafting and the like, they decided that if a player wanted their character to be a great smith, then there was really no reason to try to balance that against the rest of the character. So, you just work it out with your DM and voila.



I've ran games that were role-playing oriented, and we found the rules and suggestions lacking.

Do you really need a heavier framework for "roleplaying?" The last session I ran for my D&D group was about eight hours long. We spent about two or three of those hours in combat. The balance of the session was roleplaying and intrigue. There were a handful of times that a skill check was needed, and the game had a suitable selection of skills to use to represent the checks we needed. What else did it need to do that wouldn't have just been getting in the way?


They can't, but they can fail to support various modes of role-playing. There's no direct support for investigative scenarios or political intrigue. Even 1st level characters are powerful and resilient to the point that horror is extremely hard to pull off. Adventurers apparently don't have day jobs or communities, a rich source of plot hooks, just vague "backgrounds". (Contrast this to Call of Cthulhu, Amber Diceless RPG, and RuneQuest, known for investigation, intrigue, horror, and culture-driven adventures.)

You certainly have a point here. The thing that makes horror work well is characters who are basically fragile in comparison to the monsters that lurk in the dark. These sort of games rely on building tension and anxiety and combat is far less commonplace. D&D is a different beast altogether, and 4th Edition took it a step further because they decided that to beef up 1st level characters and avoid the first few levels which many groups often skipped anyway -- mine did. I don't see that as a failing though. D&D isn't trying to be a universal system, good for all things. If they succeed at the feel they are going for, then they've done their job.


One of the big failures in how WotC handled the skill challenges is that they fail to use them like this. Instead all of their modules seem to make them stand alone encounters, which works but it always feels forced in the sessions I've been a part of. If they showcased them as centerpieces in combat encounters I think they'd be more effective at the game table.

Ooh, I would have to agree. Working skill challenges into combats is actually a helluva lot of fun if you do it right. I saw this in action when I started gaming with Chris Sims, one of the 4e designers, and I took what he did with skill challenges and worked it into my game. It really spiced the encounters up and my players loved the results.

Q-man
07-24-2010, 12:41 PM
They can't, but they can fail to support various modes of role-playing. There's no direct support for investigative scenarios or political intrigue. Even 1st level characters are powerful and resilient to the point that horror is extremely hard to pull off.


Granted. 4e is not an investigative/sleuth RPG.

If D&D isn't made for investigation and political intrigue, then I suspect thats more of a thematic problem than an issue with the game rules. Its meant to be a fantasy game; elves, wizards, and dragons. Its not the typical setting in which you find a lot of intrigue, it happens but its far less common than the Big Evil Guy trying to destroy the world.

So this would be a problem with all versions of D&D, not some new problem that 4E introduced.

This doesn't mean that it can't be done, just that you have to be a lot more creative with your story telling. I'd suggest taking a look at the Scales of War Adventure path that WotC put out in their online magazine. Essentially you have an evil cult thats trying to bring an evil deity into the world. To distract the forces of good they setup a number of distractions; hiring goblins and orcs to raid the towns and starting a Githyanki invasion. The players need to sift through all the clues to find out who's really behind all the troubles and ultimately put a stop to them.

The story isn't bound to any setting or rule system really, its just up to the DM and the players whether or not they want to give that type of an adventure a try when they gather around the tabletop.

Admittedly other game systems are better able to handle these types of stories but I suspect thats largely the expectations set when you sit down to play. When you start a game of Call of Cthulhu your expect there will be a mystery to solve. When you sit down to play D&D you expect to be smashing orcs and gnolls. Its just how those games tend to go.

Farcaster's absolutely right that the PC's more sturdy in 4E. This doesn't mean you can't build tension with the threat of death. Just because they have more tools at hand to keep breathing, doesn't mean they will stay alive. A clever GM can circumvent any of the options given to players with careful planning in the encounters.

All healing is based on healing surges, which don't come back until they get an extended rest. So don't let them rest. Every time they make camp drop some goblins on them, only needs to be 1 or 2 to prevent them from getting a good nights sleep. The same goes for their healing abilities, none of the Daily ones will recover this way either.

Poisons and diseases can be used to reduce the total number of healing surges they have, making them have to be far more careful about when they use them.

It also helps to surround them too. They want the big burly fighter to take all the damage, but have some monsters lurking in the shadows to jump on those cloth wearing mages in the back row. If they have to spread out their healing on more targets, then eventually they'll be unable to keep up.

I'm not trying to convince you all to play 4E, I'm merely pointing out that the system isn't missing role-play options. I stand by my assertion that if the game doesn't provide you with the role-play you want, then you're playing it wrong and need to shake things up.

Matt James
07-25-2010, 08:47 AM
My good friend Mike Shea (Sly Flourish) has great tips for challenging players in 4e.

http://www.slyflourish.com

jasonj
07-31-2010, 10:53 AM
My predictions for 5th edition ? Suckage of an epic level !