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View Full Version : Enhancing Saga or Revised Saga Edition



Inquisitor Tremayne
02-05-2010, 11:51 AM
A friend of mine and I are, now that WotC is dropping Saga, revising Saga to our own tastes. We both have played d6 and the previous incarnations of d20 and taking this opportunity to make Saga into something near perfect.

He is very much into the RCR for all the rules minutia it has, I prefer the streamlined-ness of Saga but like a lot of elements from d6 and the RCR.

so the question I pose to all of you, what "issues" or "problems" do you have with the mechanics of Saga? Or what things could be tweaked to work even better?

I will post the list that I have started soon.

The main one for me is starship combat. It is nice and simple but I think it is too simple.

rovic
02-07-2010, 01:05 AM
i have been working on 2 things... like you i think starship combat need something more... somthing like pilot rolls for defense or atlest adding to defense.

the second think i have been thinking about is insted of armor adding to ref, have it give a DR. but that would change a few talents (armor defense talent tree for one).

the armor thing is one i will be working on first, if any one has any ideas that will help let me know.

Dytrrnikl
02-08-2010, 03:10 AM
I agree with Rovic about Armor. The very first d20 Star Wars released by Wotc, armor provided DR in place of any sort of defensive bonus. Something I'm looking to toy with, particularly with how weapons deal multiple die of damage and that your level eventually makes wearing armor pointless unless you have the aforementioned Armor Defense talents.

I've also been working on a way to elminate Classes and Levels from Star Wars to give a more skill based feel. Getting rid of classes is easy, it's the level thing that is difficult. As I've said on a number of times I'm all for a strictly skills based system completely free from classes and levels.
--- Merged from Double Post ---
Another thought I just had, is something that I've already incorporated into my own game...the complete removal of the Destiny mechanic. Saga is already a player friendly system, Destiny mechanic makes it, in my estimation as a GM, TOO PLAYER friendly. The ability to have your next attack hit and be an auto crit, or to be used to not be hit, among others. Group was not very happy about this at first, particularly the one or two player's (out of 7) that were using DPs to dramatically shorten the climactic battles that punctuated the end of some story arcs in a very anti-climactic fashion.

I've also tweaked Force Points because of no Destiny mechanic. Force Point use must be declared at the beginning of your character's turn for the round. You choose to apply the FP roll to either all attacks for the round, all skill checks for the round, or to all defenses for the round. Of course, talents that require FP to activate still require FP, and still only a single FP spent per round. My group took to this change unanimously, with a couple saying that it gave more of a WEG d6 feel to FPs.

A Flannel Shirt
02-11-2010, 11:18 PM
I've played all the version so here is my take.

Keep in mind I have not played the WEG version recently and found it easily to manipulate. I donít remember the details, but it could have been my lack of experience as a GM at the time. I did like the skill point / non level system. I used a similar version of that for a transformers rpg I came up with a while back. Take this as a good or bad thing but you only need d6 for weg. That is fine and dandy and all but I didnít buy a lot of dice when I could have just taken the ones out of the monopoly game. I might be one of the few that prefers different kinds of dice.

I like the way Saga does skills vs. RCR. It is easier to just pick the skills you are trained in, add 5, add Ĺ your level, and add ability mod. RCR you had to deal with how many points you have per level, cross class skills, max skill per level. It is easy to understand, but easier to just plop it all in there like saga does. I also ran into the problem of players only putting points in X Y or Z skills and saying forget the rest, and then complain when Iíd ask for an A B or C skill check. They average skill base tended to be closer in saga then RCR.

Iím glad Iím not the only one with issues with ship battles. I too have thought about using the pilot skill as a way to increase attacks or defense, but that was only a thought and has yet to jump onto paper. What I donít like is how the ion damage changed over the systems. I donít remember which system it was, I think it was WEG, but I remember when ion damage was used to just drop shields. It hardly has any difference in Saga then normal weapons.

Talents in saga are rather fun, but sometimes too much to remember.

Of course I think that the Jedi are overpowered in all the systems compared to the other classes. But after all this is star wars people always want to play Jedi.

I also feel the same as you guys do about the armor. There comes a point where it isn't worth it. I have a player with the armor talents in Saga and it really just boils down to an extra 2 to 3 defense here and there. Even that will vanish once he gets to a certain level.

Webhead
02-12-2010, 03:01 PM
What I donít like is how the ion damage changed over the systems. I donít remember which system it was, I think it was WEG, but I remember when ion damage was used to just drop shields. It hardly has any difference in Saga then normal weapons.

Ion cannons in Star Wars D6 bypassed shields and could disable a ship and its systems. It didn't do physical damage to the ship, rather it would cause the controls and critical systems (engines, weapons, shields, even life support) to freeze up or short out.

Inquisitor Tremayne
02-12-2010, 07:27 PM
Here are some brainstorming ideas:

Destiny points no longer are usable to score an automatic critical hit.

More variation in weapon ranges

Starship combat
Give more options to crew on board starships (See RCR)
Commander (free action to issue orders, aid another on system operators Use Computer checks, aid another on gunners attack Know (tactics) DC 10 check, move action to assist pilot on pilot checks, swift action to aid another on engineers mechanics checks by coordinating the repair efforts),
Pilot (must always use a move action to move the ship, perform stunt, fire weapons, use sensors, operate shields, act as commander),
Co-pilot (standard action: aid another on pilot checks, fire weapons, use sensors, operate shields),
Gunner (use stationed weapon, has full range of full attack ranged abilities, may also aid another gunner on a battery),
System Op (raise lower angle shields, recharge shields, move action to aid gunners attack or +2 to ships Ref Defense), Engineer (reroute power, jury-rigged repairs [full round action Mechanics DC 25 to repair any damaged system to remove any current negatives the ship and its crew is taking or to add xd4, 8, 10 hitpoints to the vehicle, the vehicle then looses that many hull points at the end of the encounter. If the added hitpoints would drop the ship below 0 the ship then has 1 remaining hull point].

introduce facing/fire arcs Ė affects capital ships (no rear fire arcs unless turrets), a turreted weapon system adds +1 EP and requires a gunner to operate but may fire in any direction. An added weapon system must have a declared fire arc when the weapon is first mounted to the vehicle.
introduce maneuvers

Pilots (trained in pilot) gain 1 + Wisdom modifier in Starship maneuvers

Communications (more info)

Sensor DC modifier modes (ie ship behind another one, powered down, etc...)

Inertia compensator (dial it down, +1 to pilot checks, +1 die of damage to crew on failed pilot check)

Powering up ships, weapons, shields time based on size of ship

Tricking missile attacks by flying through an occupied square (avoid hazard)

Angling shields

Engine wash

Battle damage and Flaws a critical hit always does battle damage to a ships systems

Maneuvers/stunts:
Altitude drop (move action Pilot check, +2 to Reflex defense till start of next turn),
Loop (pilot check to end up 1 square behind where it started out. Full round action),
Quick turn (free/swift/no action pilot check to turn 180 in a single square failure only turns 90),
tight loop (pilot check to quickly turn and end up 1 square behind starting square, free action/part of a move action),
tight half loop (turn around and end up in an adjacent square pilot check),

Pilot determines orientation after moving, Pilot check to turn a full 90 degrees, or 180.

Failed maneuvers/stunts (spinning out of control)

Targeting specific ship systems Ė Individual systems have 10% of a ships total hit points, targeting a system is treated as attacking a held object. A ships shields and DR still apply. A ship may enter a vessels square to bypass the shields, DR still applies. Need a list of systems and the affect they have when disabled.



The Force
Change some Force Powers to target different defenses or be opposed
--- Merged from Double Post ---
I personally don't have a problem with the way armor works. Turning it into DR is a bad idea in my opinion. If it is DR then everyone will want to wear armor, and the movies just don't reflect that. As it is, Saga offers the option to those players who do want to wear armor, it isn't something that is attractive unless you have the right talents/feats for it.

Dytrrnikl
02-13-2010, 08:52 AM
Just a few thoughts of my own on what you've come up with.


Destiny points no longer are usable to score an automatic critical hit.
Good Start...game runs better without Destiny all together, at least from what i've seen in my own games.




Starship combat
Give more options to crew on board starships (See RCR)
Commander (free action to issue orders, aid another on system operators Use Computer checks, aid another on gunners attack Know (tactics) DC 10 check, move action to assist pilot on pilot checks, swift action to aid another on engineers mechanics checks by coordinating the repair efforts),
Pilot (must always use a move action to move the ship, perform stunt, fire weapons, use sensors, operate shields, act as commander),
Co-pilot (standard action: aid another on pilot checks, fire weapons, use sensors, operate shields),
Gunner (use stationed weapon, has full range of full attack ranged abilities, may also aid another gunner on a battery),
System Op (raise lower angle shields, recharge shields, move action to aid gunners attack or +2 to ships Ref Defense), Engineer (reroute power, jury-rigged repairs [full round action Mechanics DC 25 to repair any damaged system to remove any current negatives the ship and its crew is taking or to add xd4, 8, 10 hitpoints to the vehicle, the vehicle then looses that many hull points at the end of the encounter. If the added hitpoints would drop the ship below 0 the ship then has 1 remaining hull point].

This I like. It will allow for more player involvement, beyond the limited scope of what Saga allows in combat.


introduce facing/fire arcs Ė affects capital ships (no rear fire arcs unless turrets), a turreted weapon system adds +1 EP and requires a gunner to operate but may fire in any direction. An added weapon system must have a declared fire arc when the weapon is first mounted to the vehicle.
I'm not a big fan of this, particularly with the speeds at which space vehicles move. Of course, I'm a fan of more cinematic less tactical combats, so I'm biased.



Pilots (trained in pilot) gain 1 + Wisdom modifier in Starship maneuvers
I don't reccommend doing this. Keep it set up that player's have to take the Starship Maneuver feat to learn manuevers. I did do something similar, however, I added the feat Skill Mastery for my players. You must be a minimum of 10th level, have Skill training and Skill Focus in the selected skill for Skill Mastery, and may only select Skill Mastery a number of times equal to your Intelligence Modifier. With Skill Mastery: Pilot, I allow player's to select their Wisdom Modifier in maneuvers (minimum of 1 manuever).


Angling shields
Good idea, lots of issues attempting to implement.



Battle damage and Flaws a critical hit always does battle damage to a ships systems
I'd say only if a single hit to the starship exceeded it's Damage Threshold.


Targeting specific ship systems Ė Individual systems have 10% of a ships total hit points, targeting a system is treated as attacking a held object. A ships shields and DR still apply. A ship may enter a vessels square to bypass the shields, DR still applies. Need a list of systems and the affect they have when disabled.
A bit leery about this one. SSeems like ti could add more drama and flavor to starship combat, but add needless complexity to battles, unless you are going for a more tactical starship battle.

Inquisitor Tremayne
02-13-2010, 03:53 PM
Good Start...game runs better without Destiny all together, at least from what i've seen in my own games.

I don't mind Destiny overall, I just dont like the ability to auto-crit. Plus there are now too many other feats/talents/powers linked to Destiny that I dont want to have to deal with all that nonsense of reworking.



This I like. It will allow for more player involvement, beyond the limited scope of what Saga allows in combat.

That is my primary objective for starship combat, to make more options thus make it more tactical.



I'm not a big fan of this, particularly with the speeds at which space vehicles move. Of course, I'm a fan of more cinematic less tactical combats, so I'm biased.

A lot of the other stuff I want to integrate relies on facing and fire arcs otherwise the other stuff wouldnt matter.



I don't reccommend doing this. Keep it set up that player's have to take the Starship Maneuver feat to learn manuevers. I did do something similar, however, I added the feat Skill Mastery for my players. You must be a minimum of 10th level, have Skill training and Skill Focus in the selected skill for Skill Mastery, and may only select Skill Mastery a number of times equal to your Intelligence Modifier. With Skill Mastery: Pilot, I allow player's to select their Wisdom Modifier in maneuvers (minimum of 1 manuever).

Why? All it does is give pilots more options in space combat, which is a good thing. They aren't overpowering like some Force Powers are. I am even going to give the feat again for free to those that take Skill Focus (pilot). Extra options for scenarios that dont always crop up, IMO, are a good thing.

Now if this were a starship combat only campaign (which I will never run) then I would probably debate this a little more.

Besides, all you did was add an extra feat in the way of giving it to players for free.



Good idea, lots of issues attempting to implement.

I dont really see any issues other than this will be another thing that needs to be tracked during combat. also one of those things that is really only beneficial when using facing and fire arcs. Also, its simply an option, I doubt it will be used that often.



I'd say only if a single hit to the starship exceeded it's Damage Threshold.

I've rarely seen damage go over a ships DT unless it was from a missile hit and in that case the vessel was either destroyed or wiped out 80% of that ships hull points that a -1 on the CT is the least of their worries.

That said I still might alter it. How about this, any damage the ship takes to its hull points that exceeds half the ships DT, the ship takes a system hit/battle damage. Flaws develop only if the damage was over the DT. That will make being on board a ship very exciting and have things like stabilizers coming loose and what-not.



A bit leery about this one. SSeems like ti could add more drama and flavor to starship combat, but add needless complexity to battles, unless you are going for a more tactical starship battle.

Again, going for tactical combat but also want to reflect what we see in the movies and EU, ships targeting specific systems. The Shield Generators on the SD in EP VI, and in an episode of Clone Wars they were going to target the tractor beam pulling their ship in. It is a difficult thing to pull off given the size of the object being targeted and that it gets a +10 to Reflex Defense.

Dytrrnikl
02-14-2010, 11:02 PM
I've rarely seen damage go over a ships DT unless it was from a missile hit and in that case the vessel was either destroyed or wiped out 80% of that ships hull points that a -1 on the CT is the least of their worries.
I've probably run a dozen starship encounters in my campaign, generally a mix of starships. In at least half of the encounters, I've seen damage exceed the DT of starships 1 - 2 times, about 50-50 player/baddies. Must admit, the missile hits are gruesome.


That said I still might alter it. How about this, any damage the ship takes to its hull points that exceeds half the ships DT, the ship takes a system hit/battle damage. Flaws develop only if the damage was over the DT. That will make being on board a ship very exciting and have things like stabilizers coming loose and what-not
Nice!! I can see some definate potential with this. I think I'm going to implement this in my game and see how it works.

Inquisitor Tremayne
02-15-2010, 11:08 AM
Here is another small list I have added.

I have also changed the Force Adept PrC so that it gains full Bab progression but only gains +2 to all Defenses. It's basically the Jedi Knight PrC with access to different talent trees.

I've also added in retraining (which I might revoke now that there are no more books to be made).

Explosions: when a character takes damage from a frag grenade, thermal detonator, character scale missiles, anti-personal mines, starship weapons that deal area damage, or any other type of explosive device, that character is knocked 1d6 squares backward and lands prone. The character also drops any object(s) they are holding.

Vehicles
The following hyperspace rules replace the rules for determining travel time in the SECR and work WITH the astrogation rules presented in the Starships of the Galaxy.

Hyperspace travel: Travel within the same region of space; When traveling within the same region of space (Outer Rim for example) calculate the time using the following formula: 1d10 hours x hyperdrive modifier.

Travel across multiple regions; When traversing multiple regions calculate the time using the following formula: 1d12+3 hours x hyperdrive multiplier + n days. Where "n" equals +1 day per region crossed.

Example: When traveling from the Core to the Outer Rim use the formula 1d12+3 hours x hyperdrive modifier + 5 days (for crossing through 5 regions of space). Or when traveling only in the Outer Rim use the formula 1d10 hours x hyperdrive modifier.

Hyperspace lanes: When traveling along a major hyperspace lane divide the total time in half.