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Dimthar
01-26-2010, 07:19 PM
Saw it in CNN


a 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a ban the playing of Dungeons and Dragons by a US prison inmate serving life for first-degree murderOoohhKay....!?


Prison officials enacted the ban in 2004 after an inmate sent an anonymous letter expressing concern about Singer and three other inmates forming a "gang" focused around playing the game.Maybe WoD Werewolf ... but DnD??

Still I was not worried until I read this:


... Singer was told by prison officials that he could not keep the materials because Dungeons & Dragons "promotes fantasy role playing, competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling," according to the ruling.Original Article (http://www.boingboing.net/2010/01/25/no-dd-for-us-prison.html)

No wonder McCain did not like us ....

Webhead
01-26-2010, 07:46 PM
Yeesh! What a bunch of ignorant hate-spew.

Dimthar
01-26-2010, 07:54 PM
Yeesh! What a bunch of ignorant hate-spew.

It was because of my Werewolf comment???

:(

Webhead
01-26-2010, 08:04 PM
It was because of my Werewolf comment???

:(

Not you, of course...the article. ;)

traesin
01-27-2010, 01:33 AM
I saw this too and shook my head.

Farcaster
01-27-2010, 11:45 AM
I'm just surprised to see any article that mentions D&D and the Court of Appeals. Clearly though, we need to lobby to get more D&D players voted in to office. :biggrin:

mrken
01-27-2010, 02:01 PM
I agree with Farcaster. You can vote for me as a write-in candidate for president in 2012 and I will put RPG's in all prisons, jails and schools. :lol::cool:

Dimthar
01-27-2010, 05:02 PM
My problem with the whole thing is that seems to be an "Official" endorsement from the Courts to the idea that playing DnD is a bad thing.

Richard Littles
01-27-2010, 05:10 PM
When you go to prison it's supposed to be punishment not a trip to Club Fed. Since prisoners are deprived of their most basic rights while serving a prison sentence it doesn't surprise me that the courts took away this form of entertainment. If I had my way I'd remove all of the prisoners radios, cable television, and their luxuries to ensure that they understand that prison is not a pleasant place.

Dimthar
01-27-2010, 08:13 PM
When you go to prison it's supposed to be punishment not a trip to Club Fed. Since prisoners are deprived of their most basic rights while serving a prison sentence it doesn't surprise me that the courts took away this form of entertainment.

Yes is a punishment, but that was not the real reason it was removed, it was because according to them playing DnD promotes bad behavior... Why don't ban other "Gang" (Teamwork) activities like soccer or football?

The Court is not saying we won't let you play because you are supposed to be unhappy, is saying we don't want you to play because it makes you a worse person.

mrken
01-27-2010, 08:37 PM
Not to start a fight here, but I think television and radio cause more bad behavior than rpg's. Actually, I think allowing all the gang related stuff is way worse than DnD. Still, I can see how some people can get pretty hung up on rpg stuff. With the general personality disorders many people in prison have, maybe the courts are right for these several persons. But to ban it for everyone? That just sounds ignorant, really out of touch with reality and too lazy to actually look into what rpg's are about. For as educated and as fair minded as a judge should be, this decision sounds stupid.

Richard Littles
01-27-2010, 09:23 PM
Yes is a punishment, but that was not the real reason it was removed, it was because according to them playing DnD promotes bad behavior... Why don't ban other "Gang" (Teamwork) activities like soccer or football?

The Court is not saying we won't let you play because you are supposed to be unhappy, is saying we don't want you to play because it makes you a worse person.

The press mischaracterized what the suit was about, so imagine that. :lol: The question facing the court was, "The question is whether the prison officials are rational in their belief, if left unchecked, D&D could lead to gang behavior among inmates and undermine prison security in the future." The court further states that Inmate Singer or his co-plaintiffs are not sufficiently versed in prison security to raise a genuine issue of material fact about their relationship to D&D. Singer doesn't have the experience on his side from the other side of the bars.

About Singer's claim about it infringing his First Amendment rights, the court said, "holding offenders accountable for their actions through sanctions... After all, punishment is a fundamental aspect of imprisonment, and prisons may choose to punish inmates by preventing them from participating in some of their favorite recreations."

In the end the court ruled that Inmate Singer "failed to demonstrate a genuine issue of material fact concerning the reasonableness of the relationship between Waupun's D&D ban and the prison's clearly legitimate penological interests."

Here's the ruling. (http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/tmp/UP18T1S9.pdf)

The courts and the prison system never said in the suit that D&D will make you a worse person. They said that role playing games when used as a form of escape can be detrimental to rehabilitation and provided numerous court cases to prove their point. This made it a penological concern regarding the effectiveness of rehabilitation of an inmate and for maintaining control over the prison. Inmate Singer is in prison for first degree murder for life, so the rehab aspect doesn't apply to him directly. However, the security and safety of the prison he could disrupt through the use of D&D as a gang tool.

Dimthar
01-28-2010, 06:14 PM
As detailed in the background of the Court Opinion:

* Prison Disruptive Group Coordinator, Captain Bruce Muraski



Muraski informed Singer that “inmates are not allowed to engage in or possess written material that details rules, codes, dogma of games/activities such as ‘Dungeons and Dragons’ because it promotes fantasy role playing, competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling.”From the same background:


He further testified (Muraski) that fantasy role-playing games like D&D have “been found to promote competitive hostility, violence, and addictive escape behavior, which can compromise not only the inmate’s rehabilitation and effects of positive programming, but endanger the public and jeopardize the safety and security of the institution.”From the discussion:


Muraski testified that Waupun’s prohibition on role-playing and fantasy games was intended to serve two purposes. The first aim Muraski cited was the maintenance of prison security. He explained that the policy was intended to promote prison security because co10 No. 07-3400 operative games can mimic the organization of gangs and lead to the actual development thereof. Muraski elaborated that during D&D games, one player is denoted the “Dungeon Master.” The Dungeon Master is tasked with giving directions to other players, which Muraski testified mimics the organization of a gang.After reading the full Opinion, it is clear that the Court of Appeals only agreed on the right of the Prison to Ban this activity based on their experience and views. In this case "Singer (Inmate) failed to prove that DnD does not promote Gang activities.

But is very clear what is the position of the Prison, and in that regards it should Ban Football, soccer or any Teamwork activity where a leader needs to be chosen.

Richard Littles
01-28-2010, 06:26 PM
As detailed in the background of the Court Opinion:

* Prison Disruptive Group Coordinator, Captain Bruce Muraski

From the same background:

From the discussion:

After reading the full Opinion, it is clear that the Court of Appeals only agreed on the right of the Prison to Ban this activity based on their experience and views. In this case "Singer (Inmate) failed to prove that DnD does not promote Gang activities.

But is very clear what is the position of the Prison, and in that regards it should Ban Football, soccer or any Teamwork activity where a leader needs to be chosen.

Hyperbole much? Muraski stated his reasons on why D&D should be banned and gave case studies showing his position that D&D does interfere with the rehabilitation of inmates and can be a threat to prison security. He makes this abundantly clear.

I take it that you're not familiar with modern prisons. In prison, gangs are a fact of life and if an inmate doesn't belong to a gang to protect himself/herself they will end up in the morgue. I can see the prison's point in that D&D can encourage the formation of another gang and does represent a threat to the safety to the prison guards and security of the prison itself. You have to remember that the majority of prisoners that have committed violent crimes are sociopaths and there are numerous psychological studies highlighting this fact. The effects of fantasy role playing affects sociopaths differently then it does people that are not sociopaths. Those effects are often negative since it fosters in the sociopath the belief that fantasy violence and other crimes are all right, which further reinforces their current use of fantasies to commit crimes like murder, rape, etc...

This is a complex issue that all factors have to be accounted for. In my opinion, the prison acted reasonably and did not violate Singer's rights. Singer is a violent felon that used a blunt object to bash in someone's skull to kill them. Just keep that in mind before you go off on your hyperbolic rant and making claims that are unsupported like the courts said that playing D&D makes you a worse person.

mrken
01-28-2010, 06:44 PM
Whoa, dude, take a chill pill.

Richard Littles
01-28-2010, 06:45 PM
Whoa, dude, take a chill pill.

I'm not angry or upset. If my post is taken as such then I apologize. :)

kkriegg
01-28-2010, 07:11 PM
Eh. Seems like the courts are saying that a prison can take away things from an inmate and not have it be a constitutional issue.

The reasoning behind it is just flat out idiotic (Step aside, Crips and Bloods! The D&D Boys are in control now!), but what do you expect?

TaiRei
01-28-2010, 07:25 PM
Seriously.......You think this is going to stop prisoner's from playing RPG's? They're in prison for breaking the rules of society. What's a few more, neh? People who play RPG's are generally good at memorizing information, so entire rulesets could be inside somebody's skull. Think about that.

Keep this in mind as well, D&D players are considered to be 'freaks' in prison. They don't get along with other activities so they use RPG's as an escape from the drudgery of prison life. They are targeted by other inmates fairly often, and I agree and that does cause security concerns for the prison staff.

Satellite TV and CD Players(and more recently Game Systems) help promote prison safety by keeping inmates busy. These 'luxuries' are only given to inmates with good behavior anyways(minus the TV Room which is for everyone). In Oregon at least, inmates have personal TV's/Cd Players and Game Systems.

All this being said, I neither agree nor disagree with the court's findings. If you're in prison, deal with it, break the rules if you want, they can't give you more time for playing D&D, just put you in the 'hole' as it were.

EDIT: Oh yes, I do have personal experience, BTW.

Dimthar
01-28-2010, 09:07 PM
... making claims that are unsupported like the courts said that playing D&D makes you a worse person.

I do recognize the little research done from my part before expressing my discontent which clearly demonstrates that we are subject all the time to partial, misguided or incomplete information and when possible one should always try to find the truth.

I do not challenge the "escapism" argument, but I do keep failing to see how the Prison can prove that DnD promotes Gang Activities more than any organized team sport.

In Muraski testimony he specifically uses the words "competitive hostility". DnD is definitely not the first thing that comes to my mind when looking for examples.

I have this Gut Feeling that there is an intrinsically asseveration that DnD is explosive when combined with sociopaths, while other "Socially accepted activities (e.g Team sports or bowling)" do not fall in this category, thus making any DnD player a potential ticking bomb to be feared.

But that is just my humble opinion.

kkriegg
01-28-2010, 09:45 PM
Seriously.......You think this is going to stop prisoner's from playing RPG's?

All very fine points.


I have this Gut Feeling that there is an intrinsically asseveration that DnD is explosive when combined with sociopaths, while other "Socially accepted activities (e.g Team sports or bowling)" do not fall in this category, thus making any DnD player a potential ticking bomb to be feared.

I seriously doubt it. I would wager that of all the many, many things prisons have to be concerned about, sociopathic behaviour inspired by D&D is really near the bottom of the list (if it exists at all). I think they just thought up some BS reasons just to make a case in court so they could still run the prison as they saw fit.

Dimthar
01-29-2010, 05:36 AM
I think they just thought up some BS reasons just to make a case in court so they could still run the prison as they saw fit.

I would agree that could be the case once they saw their authority challenged.

But look at how Singer was originally informed that he could not play anymore:


Muraski informed Singer that “inmates are not allowed to engage in or possess written material that details rules, codes, dogma of games/activities such as ‘Dungeons and Dragons’ because it promotes fantasy role playing, competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling.”It promotes "Fantasy Role Playing" and 4 Bad things. Since when Fantasy RPG is bad?, and don't tell me he meant this:

"DnD promotes Fantasy RPG, side effects include competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling"

.

Richard Littles
01-29-2010, 06:00 AM
I would agree that could be the case once they saw their authority challenged.

But look at how Singer was originally informed that he could not play anymore:

It promotes "Fantasy Role Playing" and 4 Bad things. Since when Fantasy RPG is bad?, and don't tell me he meant this:

"DnD promotes Fantasy RPG, side effects include competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling"

.

I believe I already answered your question on why fantasy role playing is bad for sociopaths. The organized sociopath uses fantasies to plan out their crimes or to relive past ones. Sociopaths do not think like you and I do, so by promoting fantasy role playing in sociopaths you are actively reinforcing their criminal behavior. Remember, sociopaths use fantasy as part of them committing crimes.

Sneaksta
01-29-2010, 08:43 AM
Well, the only way to be fair in this situation, is to ban ALL role-playing games. All RPG's can fall under the "Fantasy" moniker in the same way...regardless of setting.. an imaginary setting, led by a DM or GM or ST, and all could be said to fall under any and all arguments associated against DND in this thread.

kkriegg
01-29-2010, 10:58 AM
I believe I already answered your question on why fantasy role playing is bad for sociopaths. The organized sociopath uses fantasies to plan out their crimes or to relive past ones. Sociopaths do not think like you and I do, so by promoting fantasy role playing in sociopaths you are actively reinforcing their criminal behavior. Remember, sociopaths use fantasy as part of them committing crimes.

Yeah, that's what you've SAID. Do you have any evidence for this, like a study?

The problem that I see, even if such a thing were to be true, is that it sets a totally silly precident. I imagine that the 99% of inmates who don't play D&D still manage to prepare for crimes just fine. If they were serious about it, they'd have to ban lifting weights, talking to other inmates, reading books, eta, eta, eta.

Farcaster
01-29-2010, 12:05 PM
I believe I already answered your question on why fantasy role playing is bad for sociopaths. The organized sociopath uses fantasies to plan out their crimes or to relive past ones. Sociopaths do not think like you and I do, so by promoting fantasy role playing in sociopaths you are actively reinforcing their criminal behavior. Remember, sociopaths use fantasy as part of them committing crimes.

I have to be honest, that sounds like dime store psychology to me. Imagination and creativity are assets of humanity, not vices to be shunned and discouraged. If we can redirect their creativity into something more positive, it would seem to me that would be a good thing. However, I don't have any credentials as a psychologist -- I suspect that none of on this thread do.

Mestemeah
01-29-2010, 12:20 PM
Interesting discussion to be sure.

It's just a shame that there is another negative spin being put on RPGs in the press. While I'm not sure that this is a direct slam on RPGs, it is easy to see how someone can take that point of view and run with it. It seems like fuel on the fire for those who already think RPGs are bad for religious reasons, etc. While I am not a very politically-minded/involved person, I hate trying to defend my hobby/interest/passion against those who damn it in ignorance.

My two cents,
Meste

Dimthar
01-29-2010, 05:54 PM
Sociopaths do not think like you and I do, so by promoting fantasy role playing in sociopaths you are actively reinforcing their criminal behavior. Remember, sociopaths use fantasy as part of them committing crimes.

I don't deny that could be the result, but my whole point is that DnD was single out as a Threat while other activities like organized sports or literature are not.

What prevents a School System from doing the same than the prison? Statistically is bound to have a sociopath or 2 in the course of their history.

Richard Littles
01-29-2010, 06:03 PM
I don't deny that could be the result, but my whole point is that DnD was single out as a Threat while other activities like organized sports or literature are not.

What prevents a School System from doing the same than the prison? Statistically is bound to have a sociopath or 2 in the course of their history.

I don't believe that D&D was singled out. It just happened to be the role playing game that the inmate played. The ban most likely is towards all role playing games, not just D&D.

tesral
01-30-2010, 01:51 AM
I have to be honest, that sounds like dime store psychology to me. Imagination and creativity are assets of humanity, not vices to be shunned and discouraged. If we can redirect their creativity into something more positive, it would seem to me that would be a good thing. However, I don't have any credentials as a psychologist -- I suspect that none of on this thread do.

Well from the PoV of the Conservative/.Reactionary idealog, imagination is bad. You might think for yourself, something you should never do.

Regicide
01-30-2010, 02:03 AM
They said that role playing games when used as a form of escape can be detrimental to rehabilitationTo begin with, the idea that prisons are institutions of rehabilitation in any but a euphemistic sense is entirely absurd. Thus the ban is based on the premise that RPGs interfere with a function of prison that is itself as much a thing of fantasy as Vancian magic and dragonfire are.

Banning D&D in a prison environment only makes sense insofar that it is the effective purpose of the prison to destroy any and all joy in an individual's soul and to make life utterly unbearable. There are certainly those who believe that this is right and just. I beg to differ.

TaiRei
01-30-2010, 03:05 AM
Banning D&D in a prison environment only makes sense insofar that it is the effective purpose of the prison to destroy any and all joy in an individual's soul and to make life utterly unbearable. There are certainly those who believe that this is right and just. I beg to differ.

Amen to that. Of course, what prisons SHOULD do and what they actually do are two different things.

Also, Sociopathy is an outdated moniker for Antisocial Personality Disorder. Not that I have a Psych degree or anything, but wikipedia has its uses.

In Oregon, all RPG's are banned. They still have board games(Axis & Allies and the like) and allow inmates to purchase playing cards among other things. Anything can be escapism, you could sleep all day if you wanted and 'escape' from your situation. It's a lame excuse, but whatever.

I'm not worried that everybody will say D&D is ruining the world, there have always been naysayers to the hobby, and that's fine, what I am worried about is whether or not this could lead to a stifling of creativity in the wider public through legislation, and that's something none of us want or need.

1958Fury
01-30-2010, 07:38 AM
Thank goodness for this thread. Without this info, I had no incentive to stay out of prison. ;)

traesin
01-30-2010, 09:28 AM
It took me a minute there TaiRei to realize Who you were. Are you causing problems again?

tesral
01-30-2010, 10:05 AM
Well you know there is a point there. Staying out of prison seems to be the deal.

So let's attack the unjust laws that send too many people to prison. Worry less about what you can do once you get there.

Regicide
01-30-2010, 06:56 PM
I am going have to respectfully disagree with that, tesral. If we recognize that there are many unjust laws and unjust practices within the legal system that send folks to prison, then it is as much a necessary priority to ease the unnecessary suffering brought down on those incarcerated under these laws and practices as it is to remove the laws and practices.

Moreover, I don't believe that such arbitrary restrictions are constructive even when applied to folks who most people would agree belong in prison. They're already in prison. What is taking away their RPG's going to accomplish? Seriously.

kkriegg
01-30-2010, 11:21 PM
Naw. Punishment for crimes should be pretty stiff. In my opinion, the priorities of the criminal justice system should be as close to full restitution to the victims as possible, and barring that a reasonable deterrent to reduce future crimes.

In order for that to work, though, we'd need to take a weed wacker to the 75,000 pages in the Federal Register, and eliminate about 95% of our laws (which I believe don't protect anybody).

TaiRei
01-31-2010, 05:20 AM
It took me a minute there TaiRei to realize Who you were. Are you causing problems again?

If, by causing problems, you mean having a spirited discussion, then.....always. :cool:

Prison reform isn't something that's going to solve itself anytime soon, first we have to have consensus between the people who think that prison should try and fix the broken people, and those who believe prisons should be dark holes in the universe where the unwanted get thrown never to return.

tesral
01-31-2010, 11:07 AM
You have valid point there. First you have to decide you goal with incarceration. Then you have a chance of accomplishing it.

I don't think there is one answer for all people. Yes, their are people that simply made a bad decision. Then there are human animals that should never see the light of day again. The problem is sorting one from the other, not turning the former into the latter with ill treatment, and protecting the latter from the former while you do that.

All things considered the prison system does a pretty poor job with all of the above.

First shred 95% of law, federal or otherwise. Most of the people sent to jail have truly committed no harm. They are made up harms. Second no one gets a badge for very long. Badgitis is a serious problem. That is cops that think they are speical for having a badge.

And yes the general attitude about RPGs still needs work. I'm not making light of that problem. CAR-PGa
(http://www.car-pga.org/Main/Home)

kkriegg
01-31-2010, 12:50 PM
Also, do something about plea bargaining. Too many people take the 5 years because they're intimidated by the threat of 20 years, and never get their day in court.

ronpyatt
01-31-2010, 06:33 PM
To begin with, the idea that prisons are institutions of rehabilitation in any but a euphemistic sense is entirely absurd. Thus the ban is based on the premise that RPGs interfere with a function of prison that is itself as much a thing of fantasy as Vancian magic and dragonfire are.

Banning D&D in a prison environment only makes sense insofar that it is the effective purpose of the prison to destroy any and all joy in an individual's soul and to make life utterly unbearable. There are certainly those who believe that this is right and just. I beg to differ.

Agreed. Many prison systems throughout the world are designed to destroy the original person that went in (guilty or innocent). What comes out is all too often an individual that is no longer able to survive outside of prison (Club Fed or not). Fortunately there are some systems that do not promote destroying the human spirit. Hopefully, their effectiveness will make it to our country and change the destructive attitudes that promote the stick.

TaiRei
02-01-2010, 03:06 AM
Also, do something about plea bargaining. Too many people take the 5 years because they're intimidated by the threat of 20 years, and never get their day in court.

Not everybody can afford the kind of attorney that has the balls to fight back against the DA. They all went to the same damn school anyways. :lol:

Regicide
02-02-2010, 03:33 AM
Strangly enough, a legal system is a lot like a pen-and-paper RPG. Much like an RPG is a set of rules that is supposed to simulate a fantasy world, a legal system is a set of rules that is supposed to simulate justice. There are better and worse systems of course- some more geared towards painstaking accuracy and others geared towards simplicity and swiftness of play, but only a delusional madman would mistake a game of D&D for an actual epic battle between good and evil. And only a delusional madman would mistake court proceedings for justice.

I'm sometimes deathly afraid that that our government running some weird psychotic homebrew hybrid (no pun intended) of FATAL (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14567.phtml) and RAHOWA (http://web.archive.org/web/20080212094700/http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/rahowasucks.html) in our courts. How else do you explain purely sadistic nonsense like the case described on this thread and the fact that one out of fifteen black-skinned people in this country are currently in the system?

TaiRei
02-03-2010, 02:41 AM
I'm sometimes deathly afraid that that our government running some weird psychotic homebrew hybrid (no pun intended) of FATAL (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14567.phtml) and RAHOWA (http://web.archive.org/web/20080212094700/http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/rahowasucks.html) in our courts. How else do you explain purely sadistic nonsense like the case described on this thread and the fact that one out of fifteen black-skinned people in this country are currently in the system?

Wouldn't that be hilarious? You enter the court room for arraignment and the judge rolls a d20 to determine if you can be released pending trial, with a DC dependant on the severity of the charges. Then a D6 is rolled to determine how long you'll have to wait for trial(in months). Every month, flip a coin to determine whether you get an extension or not, roll D6 if successful.

You get the idea.

Regicide
02-03-2010, 04:42 AM
You make that sound like it's not already happening. I've been dragged back to court every month and a half for the past year and every time they tell me to apporach the bench, I swear to Vecna I hear the judge rolling dice.

TaiRei
02-04-2010, 02:39 AM
You make that sound like it's not already happening. I've been dragged back to court every month and a half for the past year and every time they tell me to apporach the bench, I swear to Vecna I hear the judge rolling dice.

Maybe it is for all I know. It does seem a little weird to me that the system is so uneven in its application of punishment. Two people committing the same crime might get wholly different sentences. Where's the logic in that?

tesral
02-04-2010, 11:55 AM
The golden rule dude. He that has the gold, makes the rules. The more money you have to lawyer up the better your chance of getting you way.

Sascha
02-04-2010, 12:55 PM
Maybe it is for all I know. It does seem a little weird to me that the system is so uneven in its application of punishment. Two people committing the same crime might get wholly different sentences. Where's the logic in that?
Because the 'why' of the crime is as important as the fact of the crime. (Maybe more so, depending on the circumstances and the crime.)

Also, trial conditions differ - judge, jury composition, representative ability, quality and quantity of evidence, who the defendant is (which matters a lot more than it should, in a lot of cases), etc.

This is all by design, if I understand my gov't and history lessons correctly.

Regicide
02-04-2010, 08:51 PM
Like I said, it's all some badly designed RPG. So 'bribing the DM' applies. Lets call it "Dungeons and More Dungeons." And since it's based on FATAL and RAHOWA being rich and white helps a great deal.

Sascha
02-04-2010, 10:20 PM
A snarky analogy does not an argument make. (Though your user name causes slight snickers in this context :P)

Also, drawing analogy between DnD and our judicial system? Maybe ... if you're far removed from the processes of both, they could be similar. Really, though, I don't see it; the intent and implementation of both a roleplaying game and a court of law aren't even in the same sport, let alone arena.

tesral
02-05-2010, 05:04 AM
I disagree. Everyone present is playing a role, but the consequences are real, seldom have any relation to justice and they have way too many rulebooks.

Regicide
02-05-2010, 07:38 AM
A snarky analogy does not an argument make. But an analogy can most certainly form an integral part of one. The analogic mode has served philosophers since antiquity.
(Though your user name causes slight snickers in this context :P):D
Also, drawing analogy between DnD and our judicial system? Maybe ... if you're far removed from the processes of both, they could be similar.The analogy only occurred to me the other day while I was standing in front of a judge, watching the fat bastard leaf through the prosecution's campaign notes, rolling dice behind his fancy DM screen and looking up consequences on some byzantine Gygaxian charts when he thought that no one was looking. I was anything but removed from the process at the time :D
Really, though, I don't see it; the intent and implementation of both a roleplaying game and a court of law aren't even in the same sport, let alone arena.All jokes aside, the point of the analogy is simply that if we assume the best about the courts (which is a perilous mistake indeed!) then we must conclude that the legal system is just a system of rules designed to simulate justice. We should never ever mistake a system of rules meant to simulate something for the thing itself, and when the prosecution is referred to as "the People"... well... might as well be "the Sorcerer.":lol: