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A Flannel Shirt
01-16-2010, 12:34 PM
Force Grip
You use the Force to choke or crush your enemy. Time: Standard action.
Target: One target within 6 squares or within line of sight.
Make a Use the Force check. The result of the check determines the
effect, if any:
DC 15: If your Use the Force check equals or exceeds the targetís
damage threshold, the target takes 2d6 points of damage and can only take
a single swift action on his next turn. Otherwise, the target takes half
damage and may act normally, and you may not maintain the power.
DC 20: As DC 15, except the target takes 4d6 points of damage.
DC 25: As DC 15, except target takes 6d6 points of damage.

I am running into serious issues with this power in my game. First off the force users that I have in the group have very high use force skills, 14 -16 (feats and high charisma). Most opponents at this level have a threshold or fortitude score of 16-22. The rolls are in huge favor of the force gripper. I wouldnít mind this if the power wasnít so easy to sustain but the opponent can only use a swift action; they are more or less dead unless they have an ally that can distract the gripper.

Iíd prefer not to have some random person just distract the user.

What recourse do I have other then to nerf the power?

Sascha
01-16-2010, 12:48 PM
Switch it to the Dark Side.

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-16-2010, 12:56 PM
Switch it to dark side or be liberal in handing out dark side points for maintaining the power. Just because it doesn't say its a dark side power doesn't mean Jedi can use it willy-nilly to kill whomever they wish, that is still against the jedi code of using the Force to kill.

Or, hopefully, whoever they are choking to death has friends who should be auto-firing the Jedi maintaining the power.

There is no reason to nerf the power, its strong but the drawbacks of overuse are falling to the dark side.

OR, do what the RCR did and incorporate the rule that if used against organic beings it grants a DSP.

A Flannel Shirt
01-16-2010, 01:33 PM
That doesn't help when the character is already a dark side character. I ment to put that in my original post but got side tracked doing other things.

russdm
01-16-2010, 05:19 PM
Force Grip is in my opinion badly marked in the book. It is a very dark side power, more so then Force Lightning. Force Grip happens to be only good for killing someone, and so would not be a power any Jedi character would ever take.

Force powers and Force Users are really powerful in Saga Edition but with one major drawback/flaw: Ysamiri(SP?). If you throw them against opponents carrying those no-force bubble making creatures then they won't be able to use their force powers.

Another solution would be to (if you are playing then) have them fight Vong, since Force Powers can't affect them.

I would not worry to much. To keep Force Gripping someone, the player has keep focused and so is not able to do anything else really. That makes them vulnerable especially if they get attacked by a melee weapon enemy.

I would suggest including melee using enemies to make things more interesting. getting hacked on by another person while trying to Force Grip one will make the player have to think hard about whether they really want to do it.

Remember, Darth Vader Force Gripped people to death so its a cool thing to do.

A Flannel Shirt
01-16-2010, 05:39 PM
I appreciate the input.

In my little game there are no Vong, I canít stand the new jedi order books.

As for Ysilamari Iíve always thought of them as cheesy. The main draw back is the people that are getting choked are also force users. Using Ysilamari will negate some of their abilities and some of the other players NOT using grip. So then it looks like rebuke is the best way to go.

The most annoying part of this is when the gripper is all alone against the BBEG. There is a big chance the fight will be short due to a 1v1 battle and force grip.

It seems like these are the only options:

1. Ysilamari for non force using BBEG.
Cheesy
2. Constant enemies so the 1v1 battle never happens.
Cheesy
3. Rebuke for the Jedi (er force users) and pray for a higher roll.
Praying to God
4. Nerf the skill
Cheesy

Which cheese would you prefer?

lol

Sascha
01-16-2010, 06:55 PM
You seem okay with the whole Dark Side bit in a supposed hero, so the opposition has to get smarter: numbers, tactics, droids. If there's a chance at an emotional angle, lean on it (think Vader's redemption).

Or, y'know, talk to the player and tell 'em flat out that constant use of the power is making the game less fun. If they're agreeable to easing back on the throttle or changing the mechanics, problem solved. Really, this shoulda been my first response, heh; ah, well.

Webhead
01-17-2010, 12:03 AM
The first time I read the power, I thought there had been a typo and they forgot to add "Dark Side" to the power's description. That was one of the first things I house-ruled in Saga Edition.

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-17-2010, 12:50 AM
If the character is already dark side and they are using it against other dark siders then make sure your NPCs have Rebuke. And once your PCs power has been rebuked, make sure that the opponents then Force Grip the PCs. Its no fun when your PC has been force gripped and then shot to death by the opponents mooks.

Force Grip doesn't get abused in my games. In fact the Jedi (of which there are 3, 2 PCs and a GMPC) in my game are consistently challenged because I create encounters that aren't easy for Jedi to "win" by a simple FG check. Saga is much more about using the battlefield to one's advantage, with or without minis.

On the flip side, in the campaign (dawn of defiance) where I play a bad *ss lightsaber focused Jedi I make sure to consistently get into position(s) that are favorable for my character and it upsets the GM to no end. That and the Force Wizard in the group is uber with his UtF checks and FGs all the time. He also gladly accepts any DSPs the GM hands out for his behavior.

Plus playing a tactical game against a Jedi or the players in general is not GM vs. PCs. If bad guys are using tactics that are not working why wouldn't they switch tactics? It just makes logical sense that they would adapt to the situation as needed. So do not be afraid to out-think your players. Don't abuse it either. I consider the PCs constantly loosing or taking heavy looses as abuse. The heroes SHOULD be heroes so let them. Sometimes make it difficult for them sometimes make it easy for them.

Sorry for the side track.

But no, I dont think Force Grip should inherently be Dark Side, yes it is powerful but that is what makes a Jedi, knowing when to use their power and when enough is enough.

Running a Dark Side game though, what else would you expect? If the dark side PCs aren't using Force Grip then they will switch to Force Lightning and when they do you will swear Force Lightning needs to be nerfed too!

Its the number one reason I will never ever run a dark side game. I encourage my players to flirt with the dark side as much as possible to explore the roleplaying applications but once you fall your character is MINE!

A Flannel Shirt
01-18-2010, 12:29 AM
On the flip side, in the campaign (dawn of defiance) where I play a bad *ss lightsaber focused Jedi I make sure to consistently get into position(s) that are favorable for my character and it upsets the GM to no end. That and the Force Wizard in the group is uber with his UtF checks and FGs all the time. He also gladly accepts any DSPs the GM hands out for his behavior.
Could you elaborate on your "getting in position?"



Running a Dark Side game though, what else would you expect? If the dark side PCs aren't using Force Grip then they will switch to Force Lightning and when they do you will swear Force Lightning needs to be nerfed too!

The problem with grip is the ease at which it continues and the lack of response the gripper gets.

Would you want to nerf force lightning is that easily sustainable?

1 vs. 1 combat:

Force Lightning is vs reflex:
"If the attack hits, the target takes 8d6 points of Force damage and moves Ė1 step along the condition track, if the attack misses, the target takes half damage and does not move along the condition track."

You are looking at a minimum of 4d6 damage for only one time.
What happens to the opponent next turn? He strikes back.

Grip vs. Threshold (which is usually going to be lower then reflex defense)
Letís just use the middle one here.
DC 20: As DC 15, except the target takes 4d6 points of damage.
What happens to the opponent next turn? He umm, ahhh, umm, ohhh, ahhh, switches the firing mode on his weapon then gets gripped again next turn. Rinse and repeat.

So you are looking at a skill that does 4d6 (average) damage a turn that really canít be stopped unless the gripper has a low roll.

Dytrrnikl
01-18-2010, 01:28 AM
Something that was done to me with my Star Wars bouts on the Darkside in WEG d6 and more recenly d20 Star Wars, is the GM would inflict debilitative effects onme as a Darkside user. I would still earn Darkside Points, but for evryone beyond 6 (in the case of WEG d6) or my wisdom score (in the case of d20) I would suffer a negative modifier to my skill checks or suffer a loss to an attribute of 1 or 2 points depending on what was going on. The logic was that the Darkside, while easier, began to demand more and more from the characters, so much so, that eventually, the demands of the darkside began to take a very physical toll on my character.

I haven't done this to my players, as due to my rather strict (others would say narrow-minded) perspective on the Force and Jedi, my players may skirt the darkside, but never actually give in to it, particularly since I never run "redemption" stories or allow players to have evil "heroes" or those characters that are moraly ambiguous (which equates to evil In my gamers and GMs perspective).

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-18-2010, 11:14 AM
[COLOR=black]Could you elaborate on your "getting in position?"

Surge. Lots and lots of liberal use of surge. I just discovered a "loophole" with surge as well. If you spend a destiny point to enhance surge then you essentially succede on ANY jump check because the destiny point allows you to jump with no jump check needed!!!!

If my Jedi is across the battlefield she surges and can usually get where she needs to be in 1 round.


*snip*

Yeah, I never said Force Grip wasn't powerful it is and it is often an encounter ender and there in lies the key. In a non-dark side game your force user should grip them and then let the encounter end a free the one being gripped. I would have no problem giving a character a DSP for maintaining FG when the gripee is essentially helpless.

BUT you are running a dark side game so you need to find feats, talents and skills that can use swift actions AND give any opponents that are Force sensitive Rebuke. OR use FG against your PCs FIRST.

If you were to nerf it what would you do? Less damage?

MY suggestion, make FG a full-round action. That way the one doing the gripping can only take reactions while doing the gripping. And make it a full-round action to maintain. That is a lot of dedication to a Force Power and would only really be usable once a combat has subsided.

A Flannel Shirt
01-19-2010, 11:43 PM
Surge. Lots and lots of liberal use of surge. I just discovered a "loophole" with surge as well. If you spend a destiny point to enhance surge then you essentially succede on ANY jump check because the destiny point allows you to jump with no jump check needed!!!!
I can't seem to find that rule.

I found this on wizards:

1) When using Surge, do not double the DC of jump checks for not running.

2) Added to text: Special: May spend a Force point to add +10 to jump checks and 2sq to speed. May spend a Destiny point to use your total speed for the round as jumping distance. (No check required)

I see the part about no check required, but total speed is your jumping distance?

Is this right?

12 squares = med creature speed at 6 squares + 6 for surge without a roll?

Also, if you were in melee with someone and you surged over the enemy would that provoke an attack of opportunity?



If you were to nerf it what would you do? Less damage?


We are going to try a cumulative -3 on each roll after the first. We have other options but that is going to be the first one we try.

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-21-2010, 07:48 PM
I can't seem to find that rule.

I found this on wizards:


I see the part about no check required, but total speed is your jumping distance?

Is this right?

That is correct. PLUS your jumping distance is your TOTAL speed for the encounter! So...


12 squares = med creature speed at 6 squares + 6 for surge without a roll?

Actually no. Your surge skill check, if maxed, gives you 6 extra squares of movement, spending a DP while doing so adds an ADDITIONAL +2 squares for a total of 8 extra squares of movement, giving you a total of 14 squares of movement, PER MOVE ACTION, or 28 squares of movement as a full-round action!!

AND you may jump at any point during those 28 squares that you are moving for freeeeeeeee! No Check required means you can jump however the heck high you want! I just realized this 2 weeks ago! I have fallen in love with surge all over again!


Also, if you were in melee with someone and you surged over the enemy would that provoke an attack of opportunity?

If you were jumping through their threatened squares yes, you would provoke an AoO. However there may be something you can do with Acrobatics to get around that. Im not that familiar with the Tumble rules.




We are going to try a cumulative -3 on each roll after the first. We have other options but that is going to be the first one we try.

Just a nitpick, I would stick with the normal Saga bonus and penalties convention of +/-1, +/-2, +/-5, +/-10. And I think in the case of Force Grip a cumulative -5 would me reasonable.

HOWEVER, it would severely hamper what we witness FG doing in the movies. I should what we see Vader doing in the movies. He may or may not be able to maintain his FG to kill off his lackeys if he was taking cumulative penalties.

Anachronist
01-21-2010, 08:56 PM
Here's the thing.

If you're a thief, and you steal things, and you get caught, eventually you'll be punished.

If you're a murderer, same thing.

Pretty much, if you do anything against society, society will respond appropriately.

If you force choke someone, you're going to scare Hells out of everyone around you and they'll just start shooting, if they have a blaster. Or you'll get the attention of people more able to handle you, and don't like your competition.

If the guy's Dark Side anyway, then shouldn't he run into more people appropriately ready to defend against him? How many times did Vader attempt to force choke a Jedi? How many times did Maul? Sidious? Dooku? Yeah. Never happened. See what I'm getting at?

Persons adept at using The Force should have some natural defense against the choke. That is represented within the game, certainly, with Rebuke. Throw more Force adepts at your dark side character; in fact, give him a taste of his own medicine. Throw some Dark Side adepts at him.

Let him know he's not the only Sith in the pond. Inquisitor Tremayne has the right idea, there. He's already said what I basically said here.

And as for it being a Dark Side power only; remember RotJ when Luke used the grip on the Gamorrean guard at Jabba's? He used it just long enough to make "Not Inspired By An Orc, Honest" step aside. Then he released the chump. No loss of life, stayed within Jedi code. Now, had he used it to pick the guard up, choke his life out, and then toss the husk out into the sand, well, that's a DS point, and a stern lecture from the shades of both Kenobi AND Yoda. Likewise, if he'd used a Force push to shove some defenseless people off of a cliff, then that's a DS point too. It's not WHAT the power actually is; it's how it's used, and the intent behind it. Force Grips don't kill people; Sith kill people.

I like the idea of losing physical attributes and penalties to skill checks; the films stated that the Dark Side consumes its user over time. Sure, while they're using The Force, they're God-like. The rest of the time, they're weakened. When your players start to need to burn Force points just to climb a flight of stairs, they may reconsider their overuse of powers like Force Grip a bit.

The main problem you face now is that you have established precedent; they've been using it a certain way up to now. Changing the rules mid-game will seem unfair, and it really is. However, throwing tougher opponents against him, able to rebuke his grip, might make him rethink it. And if you use an exponential weakening system (instead of a linear), so that the weakening effects get stronger the more it's used, then you can explain the minor degradation up to now, as well as the sudden increase in weakness later.

Either that, or kill them off. I don't recommend that, though. Too many GM Dark Side points.

A Flannel Shirt
01-21-2010, 10:08 PM
Yea I've tried all of that and I think you guys think this is some huge problem with my game, when in reality it was just a discussion I had with the dark sider and the non force users in the group.

I don't feel like figuring out exactly the stats for Vader killing some of those lackies, but I'm sure even with a -3 cumulative penalty he won't have a problem killion a peon.


I'll try it later when I'm not so tired.

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-21-2010, 11:19 PM
Force Grips don't kill people; Sith kill people.

Awesome!

Dytrrnikl
01-22-2010, 02:58 PM
...It's not WHAT the power actually is; it's how it's used, and the intent behind it...

I curse the day that this line of thought was introduced into the Star Wars universe. It's the one aspect of the whole Yuzhon Vong series that lucas licensing should never have approved.

That's just me having sour grapes over the current day ideaology of people wanting to see more vigilante like heroes, using the same types of tools as the bad guys. I miss teh days when heroes were, well heroic, and not flawed individuals like what was presented in The Wimp...err. Watchmen.

SOrry for the rant. Back on topic. That is definately one perspective to take, with intent. However, I do agree with...


If you're a thief, and you steal things, and you get caught, eventually you'll be punished.

If you're a murderer, same thing.

Pretty much, if you do anything against society, society will respond appropriately.

If you force choke someone, you're going to scare Hells out of everyone around you and they'll just start shooting, if they have a blaster. Or you'll get the attention of people more able to handle you, and don't like your competition.

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-22-2010, 05:57 PM
I curse the day that this line of thought was introduced into the Star Wars universe. It's the one aspect of the whole Yuzhon Vong series that lucas licensing should never have approved.

That's just me having sour grapes over the current day ideaology of people wanting to see more vigilante like heroes, using the same types of tools as the bad guys. I miss teh days when heroes were, well heroic, and not flawed individuals like what was presented in The Wimp...err. Watchmen.

SOrry for the rant. Back on topic. That is definately one perspective to take, with intent. However, I do agree with...

Yes but that was still explained away, it was still a part of the Potentium (sp?) Heresy and thus your dark side actions STILL led to the dark side and it was an underlying reason why Jacen Solo fell to the dark side. Sorry for the spoiler.

So as much as authors TRY to work in "gray" Jedi (yuk! I REALLY hate that term) lucas licensing always ropes them back in.

A Flannel Shirt
01-24-2010, 11:59 PM
I've been looking into surge more and you really have found a diamond in the rough.

Not only can a force user use rebuke against force grip, but your little trick with surge works as well. Under grip you can only perform a swift action, well guess what, surge is a swift action. You can easily surge out of the grips range. The only thing in grips favor is that line of sight thingy, but surge gives another out to the non gripper

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-25-2010, 12:04 AM
Unfortunately Grip still wont let you move. However, if you can BE moved by some other means, like an ally pulls you behind a wall or something, well then...

jormundre
01-30-2010, 10:10 PM
A lot of good advice found here- Inquisitor Tremayne is always a very helpful individual from my experience.
Grip can be down right evil- especially at these lower levels where a balanced encounter says use Mooks (as mentioned above). So consider some of your behind the scenes equalizers…
Unstoppable Force (+5 Fort and Will vs. force Powers) from the Clone wars campaign guide
Imp DTH feat? Plus the species Dashade from Galaxy at War get a +5 species bonus that stacks with Unstoppable Force. Perhaps a team with a Deshade or two has been sent after this Force user to settle the score from someone’s family he has killed..?
Batter the Jedi with damage so they have a harder time maintaining their power. I agree that area attacks are a great way to toss out some (maybe not a whole lot, but) definite damage nonetheless.

And remember- if you’re the GM..your God. Look how god smote Fabio’s vanity…he chucked a goose at his face whilst on a roller coaster and did a number on his face. I hear the lord works in mysterious ways…so if you need to hurl a stray mynock at him…by all means, maybe mynocks are forever trying to feed on the dark energy of your fallen Jedi and are attracted to his energy reading. Maybe a Kawakian Monkey Lizard tries to mate with his leg and he gets distracted… maybe, maybe not…your god here, right

Inquisitor Tremayne
03-30-2010, 01:14 PM
One house rule I am considering taking onto Force Grip is maintaining it on a living creature grants a Dark Side point.

I might do that across the board for any Force Power that is maintained and causes damage.

Might even make it so that EVERY time you make that UtF check to maintain it you get a DSP, you could rack up a whole lotta DSPs just maintaining a Force Power! Hello Dark Side!

I guess that really doesn't help a Dark Side game however...

A Flannel Shirt
03-31-2010, 12:16 AM
Been a while since I've been here and still getting used to this unusual format.

The player in my game doesn't mind all the dsps, however recent transgressions against a captain of a new republic ship have caused the council to become concerned at the characters recent behaivor.

He is going to start to need to atone for some of his dark side points. I've talked to the player and we both agree this will spark up some more role playing between the characters. For my games players need to atone in game. It is going to get exciting.

Inquisitor Tremayne
03-31-2010, 11:44 AM
There is an optional rule for atoning in The Force Unleashed that is way better than the one in the core book.

Basically a character must spend at least 24 hours meditating on their transgression. And they may only remove 1 DSP once per level.

I use that one!

Dytrrnikl
04-01-2010, 02:14 PM
There is an optional rule for atoning in The Force Unleashed that is way better than the one in the core book.

Basically a character must spend at least 24 hours meditating on their transgression. And they may only remove 1 DSP once per level.

I use that one!

I implemented that one as soon as I saw it. Something else I do, as a houserule add-on to that, is if the player was particularly noble and displayed extraordinary restraint with how they use the Force. I allow them the ability if they have a Destiny (I say if because I'm slowly phasing out Destiny mechanics in my games), to encourage elimination of Destiny Points, they can choose to forgo gaining/spend a Destiny Point and instead lose 3 Darkside Points. I figure since DPs can be spent to gain 3 FPs, it can be used to eliminate 3 DSPs. The two Force-using characters in my game have each used this once since I implemented it.

TheYeti1775
12-13-2010, 01:10 PM
Just add one thing to the power.
The wielder of Force Grip has the power to simply hold without damage or to have it be subdual only.
Same DC mechanics, but it does the intent of use portion just fine than.

No need to nerf it for the Light Siders.

If they are a Dark Sider abusing it, remember it's a two-way street. The more they use it the more likely someone going up against them will have heard about it's use. They will be prepared.

Dytrrnikl
12-13-2010, 06:33 PM
And as for it being a Dark Side power only; remember RotJ when Luke used the grip on the Gamorrean guard at Jabba's? He used it just long enough to make "Not Inspired By An Orc, Honest" step aside. Then he released the chump. No loss of life, stayed within Jedi code. Now, had he used it to pick the guard up, choke his life out, and then toss the husk out into the sand, well, that's a DS point, and a stern lecture from the shades of both Kenobi AND Yoda. Likewise, if he'd used a Force push to shove some defenseless people off of a cliff, then that's a DS point too. It's not WHAT the power actually is; it's how it's used, and the intent behind it. Force Grips don't kill people; Sith kill people.

This is something that my friends and I have dicussed to no end...ultimately, and I surprised, we all agree, that while Luke show restraint, he still got slapped with darkside points because the Force by Jedi dogma, as taught by Yoda was never to be used for attacking...or more specifically;
YODA: "A jedi uses the Force for knowledge. NEVER for attack."

That one statement, if it is accepted that he was one of the greatest teachers of the Force, has a rightness about it that makes the Unifying Force concept a complete load of bantha dung. Or in the context of what I quoted above...It IS as much WHAT the power IS as it is about the INTENT behind its use.

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-14-2010, 12:55 PM
I agree, Luke got DSPs, that is part of the whole thing about Luke becoming more and more like his father, Luke skirted the dark side but didn't fall like his dad.

Dang! You know what I just remembered!? The rules for suffocation! Good golly how could I have forgotten this!? Force grip might want to be changed to Force Choke and have the suffocation rules written into it. I might also add an optional move object into Force Choke since you usually see the person being choked levitated as well.

Good golly the Force is powerful!

And I believe Yoda is the only one who is right about the Force, period. You can never trust what a Sith says about the Force, to me there are no Sith truths because they manipulate the truth to fit their dogma. The Force has a light side and a dark side, the dark side is a blight on the Force that needs to be kept in check.

Consequently, I adopted an old rule a friend of mine created, during the Rise of the Empire, the Dark Times and the Rebellion Era, when a Force User attempts to Use the Force to Sense the activities of a dark sider they take a -10 circumstance penalty to the check AND the check is opposed by the reigning Sith Lord. Even if successful the check only reveals what the Sith want them to see! Hence the shroud of the Dark side has fallen bit.

Dytrrnikl
12-15-2010, 07:40 AM
...the rules for suffocation! Good golly how could i have forgotten this!? Force grip might want to be changed to force choke and have the suffocation rules written into it. I might also add an optional move object into force choke since you usually see the person being choked levitated as well.

...when a force user attempts to use the force to sense the activities of a dark sider they take a -10 circumstance penalty to the check and the check is opposed by the reigning sith lord. Even if successful the check only reveals what the sith want them to see! Hence the shroud of the dark side has fallen bit.

brilliant!!!

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-18-2011, 11:54 PM
Here is my version of Force Choke, what do you think?


Force Choke [Dark Side]: You use the Force to choke and suspend a creature in the air. Time: Full-Round Action. Target: One Target within 12 squares and within line of sight.
Make a Use the Force Check. If your check result exceeds the targets Fortitude Defense, the target is lifted a meter off the ground and begins to suffocate, moving -1 step down the condition track. The target may only take a swift action on its next turn.
Special: You may maintain your Force Choke by making your Use the Force check vs. the targets Fortitude Defense again, if successful you maintain choking the target and it moves an additional -1 step down the condition track. If the target reaches the bottom of the condition track it falls unconscious. If Force Choke is maintained on an unconscious target the target then dies. Maintaining Force Choke is a standard action. If you suffer damage while maintaining Force Choke you must succeed on a Use the Force check (DC 20 + damage taken) to continue concentrating.

It is pretty powerful, but then so is the Force Choke we see in the films and cartoon, so I am ok with it. It is usually a game ender and is only disrupted by intervention, so...

Dytrrnikl
01-19-2011, 07:44 AM
Veri nice!! If you don't mind, I'm going to port this into my game. My group recently freed a Sith Lord who had been imprisoned in a Stasis Chamber for the last 4000 years. It's going to be nice to unleash some new and unusual force effects on the group...forgotten knowledge and powers and such.

As for the write up...I am sold on Force Grip moving characters down the condition track, rather than having it cause actual hit point loss. I agree that it's usually a game ender. The 1 meter lift off the ground just adds some nice visual flavor to the use of the power. Again, very nice rewrite.

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-19-2011, 11:08 PM
Yeah, I was trying to think of a way to work in the suffocation rules, which moves the character down the CT and eventually death, so I just basically made Force Choke suffocation. Fitting.

Not too powerful you think?

Dytrrnikl
01-20-2011, 07:29 AM
I don't think it'[s too powerful. First, you eliminated the escalating effect of the damage most damage based Force Powers have by making it a single Use the Force check vs Defense. It is either going to work, or it's not. Also, additional Use the Force checks are required to maintain it, so there is a chance that it won't happen. Finally, allowing a swift action could be just enough time for an experienced Force-User to do something to free themselves. So, no, it's not too powerful. If anything, you've made it closer to what was first shown in Star Wars: A New Hope, when we see Vader first use it on the Imperial Moff(?)/Officer for being snide about the Force. Kudos!!!

A Flannel Shirt
01-20-2011, 05:29 PM
What could a Jedi do to counter with a swift action?

On the flip side what can a non Jedi do?

I don't understand how people can't react to being choked. You are not controlling my hands or my feet, you are choking me. I should still be able to shoot you. Penalized but should still be able react and not sit there waiting to be incapacitated, waiting for a bad roll or die.

Dytrrnikl
01-21-2011, 09:22 AM
What could a Jedi do to counter with a swift action? One power shown in the Prequel trilogy used primarily against Force Lightning is REBUKE, which takes a reaction. An experienced Jedi, such as a Jedi Master, with the QUICKEN POWER force secret can activate any Force Power that requires a Standard or Move action to activate can be activated as a swift action with the expenditure of a force point. That opens a host of options, such as Force Stun and Force Slam or even Sever Force...and those are just powers from the Core Rulebook.


On the flip side what can a non Jedi do?
The short answer, is not much, other than perhaps having another force-user present or allies that can harm the Force Gripping force-user. However, having witnessed the strategic choices of feats and talents made by my players, I'm sure something is quite possible by the player itself.


I don't understand how people can't react to being choked. You are not controlling my hands or my feet, you are choking me. I should still be able to shoot you. Penalized but should still be able react and not sit there waiting to be incapacitated, waiting for a bad roll or die.

Part of the problem with choking is the pain that comes along with it. Air is not just being impeded into your lungs, your windpipe is being crushed or collapsed so that air cannot pass through. Have you ever been punched or struck in the throat? I have. I took a knife hand strike to my throat/windpipe (years ago when I was into martial arts and taking lessons) during a sparring match. My reaction was to gag and drop to the floor. I see the alteration to Force Grip, as Inquisitor Tremayne has presented it, as an in game way of being struck in the throat/windpipe. Maintaining it requiring additional Use the Force checks, with successes moving you one additional step down the condition track...like taking multiple, successive strikes to the windpipe, each one a bit more painful and debilitating than the next. But that's me.

I know with DnD a lot of players had issue with save or die, which Tremayne's alteration falls into that category after a fashion. Not me. It sucks when a character bites it, but it is a part of the game. For me, an INTEGRAL part of the game, or it's pointless to have things like hit points, debilitating conditions, or coup de grace maneuvers.

A Flannel Shirt
01-21-2011, 11:52 PM
Part of the problem with choking is the pain that comes along with it. Air is not just being impeded into your lungs, your windpipe is being crushed or collapsed so that air cannot pass through. Have you ever been punched or struck in the throat? I have. I took a knife hand strike to my throat/windpipe (years ago when I was into martial arts and taking lessons) during a sparring match. My reaction was to gag and drop to the floor. I see the alteration to Force Grip, as Inquisitor Tremayne has presented it, as an in game way of being struck in the throat/windpipe. Maintaining it requiring additional Use the Force checks, with successes moving you one additional step down the condition track...like taking multiple, successive strikes to the windpipe, each one a bit more painful and debilitating than the next. But that's
me.

With all due respect you are not a soldier or a jedi.

My problem with the way it is written and Inquisitor Tremayne's write up is that once you are gripped you are toast unless a bad roll saves you, or a friend. 1 on 1, you just gotta hope for a bad roll or die. Give me something to do to save myself. The curve of UtF vs defenses is less at higher levels so it becomes less of an issue at the higher levels. Since my players have broken level 12+, grip is becoming less useful. This is a great example of why people house rule skill focus UtF for lower level Jedi.

PS, I have no clue why it keeps putting in the quotes around the "me" I've deleted them 5 times now and it keeps coming back. OH well. Quicken Power is works well too, but that is at upper levels.

Dytrrnikl
01-22-2011, 03:37 PM
I'm not!? SHHH! Don't tell anyone.

Seriously, though, I do see where you are coming from. However, I'm also a believer that there are just some things, regardless of profession, skill, training, or experiences, are unavoidable and nothing can be done about it. Life is not fair. Having elements of that in a game help to emulate a little realism. There are some things in the Star Wars Universe that, at least for me, just requires another Force-User to handle, and even then it might not be anough - things like Force Grip.

Now this is my own biased perspective, however, based on the films and cartoons, in a 1 on 1 fight between a Force-User and a non Force-User, 99 times out of 100, the non Force-User should be toast, especially if the opponents are of equal level. The great equalizer are multiple opponents against a single Force-User or another Force-User. Yes, I am biased toward the Force and Force-User, but I'm also very strict (harsh, close-minded) with Light and Dark side. If the Force is used to cause physical harm, regardless of the intent, it's a Darkside act. But that's a topic for another discussion.

A Flannel Shirt
01-22-2011, 05:05 PM
On another board (which will remain unnamed) people are sick of SW RPG.

The jedi thing is the biggest complaint most people have with the genre/system.

Yet that is what SW is. A catch 22.

A few of my players have awesome non jedi builds. With my help of course.

If you change FG to let the target use a standard action the non jedi builds do well.

tinkerghost
01-22-2011, 07:47 PM
Think the closest I ever came to a Jedi character was an "Alien user of the Force". Used a staff with a stun field on both ends long before Darth Maul ever made an appearance.

Most of my characters were the old "Laconic Scout" from the WEG D6 version. Pilots with some Sense skills make for insane getaway drivers.

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-22-2011, 10:17 PM
My problem with the way it is written and Inquisitor Tremayne's write up is that once you are gripped you are toast unless a bad roll saves you, or a friend. 1 on 1, you just gotta hope for a bad roll or die. Give me something to do to save myself. The curve of UtF vs defenses is less at higher levels so it becomes less of an issue at the higher levels. Since my players have broken level 12+, grip is becoming less useful. This is a great example of why people house rule skill focus UtF for lower level Jedi.

What is the difference between my version and Force Grip? With both powers you are rendered immobile and only granted a swift action. Mine moves you down the CT while Grip causes damage.

Force Grip used as Force Choke never made sense to me because the way it is RAW does not reflect what is seen on screen. Granted, for a purpose, to allow the User to describe it anyway he wanted. For example one character in one of our games always used it to crush the persons entire body. In the films you also get the sense that these people being choked are about to die, and Force Grip has NEVER ever come across that way.

In addition you never see anyone fighting back against the User when they are being gripped, so honestly, giving them a swift action is even pretty generous. But it IS a game and it would be no fun to be Choked all the time with no way out. I even upped the DC to maintain after taking damage because it is always seen that it is easily disrupted.

---------- Post added at 10:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 PM ----------


On another board (which will remain unnamed) people are sick of SW RPG.

The jedi thing is the biggest complaint most people have with the genre/system.

Yet that is what SW is. A catch 22.

A few of my players have awesome non jedi builds. With my help of course.

If you change FG to let the target use a standard action the non jedi builds do well.

Star Wars games, I have found, take a lot of effort on the part of the GM to make the encounters diverse and challenging enough so everyone involved gets a fair chance. Jedi ARE powerful, that is a fact, but they can also be easily defeated. I have never had a problem killing Jedi in my game. In fact I have to be actively aware of NOT killing them too easily!

lockend
01-23-2011, 03:54 AM
Hi guys, first time poster here with some big questions in this topic, Woooh go me, anyway on to business:

Can force grip (force choke) be used on droids? And if no, then what about characters with full or partial cyborg conversions, (see galaxy at war)

If yes, then are the droids still forced to only a swift action or are they considered immobile? I mean, they don't breath so.....?

One way one of my characters got out of this is by installing the "Borg Construct" cyber augemetation (computer on the brain) and then having weapon implacements (see scum and villany) on his armor, namely "miniaturized" (scum and villainy again) mini proton torpedoes launchers (see rebellion era) and had them remote activated (yup scum and villainy) so he could access them remotely from the borg construct as a swift action and let all hell brake loose with missiles, also a cortosis round for a slug thrower, nothing says block this like a dead lightsaber :D

Dytrrnikl
01-23-2011, 08:32 AM
A Flannel Shirt

On another board (which will remain unnamed) people are sick of SW RPG.

The jedi thing is the biggest complaint most people have with the genre/system.

Yet that is what SW is. A catch 22.

A few of my players have awesome non jedi builds. With my help of course.

If you change FG to let the target use a standard action the non jedi builds do well.


My brother, who loves Star Wars, is a big vocal proponent of the imbalance between Jedi and non-Jedi. The way I see it, is not so much an imbalance between Jedi and non-jedi, so much as the natural imbalance that is created in class-based level-based systems. Discarding 4E DnD, in which I see the classes as being THEMATICALLY different but mechanically identical, class-based level-based systems have an inherent power curve. That inherent power curve, unless you do what was done in 4E DnD, results in different classes becoming more powerful as they advance. Now, as Inquisitor Tremayne has said,
Star Wars games...take a lot of effort on the part of the GM to make the encounters diverse and challenging enough so everyone involved gets a fair chance. Jedi ARE powerful...but they can also be easily defeated.

With today's philosophy of trying to make things fair across the board, that sort of power differential by new gamers and some old schoolers just does not sit well.

Also, as Tremayne said, he only changed how the power debilitates the target. I actually see his alteration to Force Grip being better, as now you can get hammered by it a couple of times, BUT still have FULL hit points once freed from it's effects. yeah, you've got some modifiers due to being moved down the condition track, but that's better than being down the condition track AND being down a lot of HP.

---------- Post added at 09:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 AM ----------


Hi guys, first time poster here with some big questions in this topic, Woooh go me, anyway on to business:

Can force grip (force choke) be used on droids? And if no, then what about characters with full or partial cyborg conversions, (see galaxy at war)

If yes, then are the droids still forced to only a swift action or are they considered immobile? I mean, they don't breath so.....?

One way one of my characters got out of this is by installing the "Borg Construct" cyber augemetation (computer on the brain) and then having weapon implacements (see scum and villany) on his armor, namely "miniaturized" (scum and villainy again) mini proton torpedoes launchers (see rebellion era) and had them remote activated (yup scum and villainy) so he could access them remotely from the borg construct as a swift action and let all hell brake loose with missiles, also a cortosis round for a slug thrower, nothing says block this like a dead lightsaber :D

Hey lockend!! Salutations and welcome!!!
As to answer your question about whether or not a droid can be affected by Force Grip, I think this can be open to individual GM interpretation. My inclination as a GM would be no.
page 92 of the core rulebook the first sentence under USING THE FORCE heading: The Force is a mystical energy field that surrounds and binds all LIVING things in the galaxy. A droid is a non-living entity, a piece of equipment that can be used and discarded.

However, with the RAW as written, and a verbatim interpretation Force grip itself states:
You use the Force to choke or CRUSH your enemy.

AND

it affects, one TARGET within 6 squares or within line of sight.

Add-in that Force Grip RAW, operates on a scale, dealing increasing damage depending on the Use the Force skill roll, the higher the total, the more hit point damage dealt...which can also be bumped up for extra damage by the expenditure of a Force Point. Also, the RAW state that a Droid is non-living and is not precluded from being crushed, which is not on the list immunities for being non-living:
A droid is immune to poison, disease, radiation, noncorrosive atmospheric hazards, vacuum, mind-affecting effects, stunning effects, and any other effect that works only on living targets.


In anycase, Force Grip could still affect a Cyborged character, since it chokes or crushes a single target.

Finally, that IS a very creative and innovative why of taking care of Force Grip.

Inquisitor Tremayne may have a different take on this than I do, however. I hope my perspective helps.

lockend
01-23-2011, 01:58 PM
Hey lockend!! Salutations and welcome!!!
As to answer your question about whether or not a droid can be affected by Force Grip, I think this can be open to individual GM interpretation. My inclination as a GM would be no.
page 92 of the core rulebook the first sentence under USING THE FORCE heading: The Force is a mystical energy field that surrounds and binds all LIVING things in the galaxy. A droid is a non-living entity, a piece of equipment that can be used and discarded.

However, with the RAW as written, and a verbatim interpretation Force grip itself states:
You use the Force to choke or CRUSH your enemy.

AND

it affects, one TARGET within 6 squares or within line of sight.

Add-in that Force Grip RAW, operates on a scale, dealing increasing damage depending on the Use the Force skill roll, the higher the total, the more hit point damage dealt...which can also be bumped up for extra damage by the expenditure of a Force Point. Also, the RAW state that a Droid is non-living and is not precluded from being crushed, which is not on the list immunities for being non-living:
A droid is immune to poison, disease, radiation, noncorrosive atmospheric hazards, vacuum, mind-affecting effects, stunning effects, and any other effect that works only on living targets.


In anycase, Force Grip could still affect a Cyborged character, since it chokes or crushes a single target.

Finally, that IS a very creative and innovative why of taking care of Force Grip.

Inquisitor Tremayne may have a different take on this than I do, however. I hope my perspective helps.

Thanks for the welcome Dytrrniki :D (Dang how do you pronounce that name 0.o) , ya based on my reading of the rules of force grip that was my belief, I just figured I could get some clarification on it, see if there was a loophole to a very powerful force power, I do wonder though if Inquisitor Tremaynes Force Choke would still work,

Here is my version of Force Choke, what do you think?


Force Choke [Dark Side]: You use the Force to choke and suspend a creature in the air. Time: Full-Round Action. Target: One Target within 12 squares and within line of sight.
Make a Use the Force Check. If your check result exceeds the targets Fortitude Defense, the target is lifted a meter off the ground and begins to suffocate, moving -1 step down the condition track. The target may only take a swift action on its next turn.

Being that it seems to require breathing and a cyborg or droid, don't breathe

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-23-2011, 07:54 PM
Yeah for my Force Choke, droids are immune. But Force Grip as written does not exclude droids since the word crushed is in there. Droids can most certainly be crushed. In addition this is what is assumed Mace Windu used on Grevious in the first Clone Wars cartoon.

And welcome to the boards Lockend!

Dytrrnikl
01-23-2011, 09:05 PM
...(Dang how do you pronounce that name 0.o)...

Dytrrnikl is pronounced DYE-terr-nickel.

A Flannel Shirt
01-24-2011, 11:36 AM
What is the difference between my version and Force Grip? With both powers you are rendered immobile and only granted a swift action. Mine moves you down the CT while Grip causes damage.

I think I said that. I think you might have misread me. Who cares if you are down CTs or HP if you still can't react? That is all I am saying. There is nothing for the target to do but wait to die.

Grip VS Choke.

Surprising that WotC liked to separate force powers that can be used to do the same thing I am surprised that it should even be called grip. It its purest form grip is nothing more than a type of move object. Rather than moving the object you are squeezing it.

What I mean is Move Object vs Force Disarm, Fold Space, etc etc. There are powers that could go either way.

If I were to rewrite Saga I would just call the entire thing move object with subtopics like how Use Computer is written.

Move Object:
With this you can do: Grip, Disarm, Move, etc etc.

-------
Cortosis round for a slug thrower? Wouldn't that be more expensive than what it is worth? How much would a cortosis round for a slug thrower cost? Also how do you handle how long the saber is deactivated for?

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-24-2011, 10:40 PM
I think I said that. I think you might have misread me. Who cares if you are down CTs or HP if you still can't react? That is all I am saying. There is nothing for the target to do but wait to die.

Grip VS Choke.

Sorry, I misunderstood your argument. To answer your question I believe the one being gripped/choked cares as well as the one doing the gripping/choking. But I think you are really trying to get at is this:


My problem with the way it is written and Inquisitor Tremayne's write up is that once you are gripped you are toast unless a bad roll saves you, or a friend. 1 on 1, you just gotta hope for a bad roll or die. Give me something to do to save myself. The curve of UtF vs defenses is less at higher levels so it becomes less of an issue at the higher levels. Since my players have broken level 12+, grip is becoming less useful. This is a great example of why people house rule skill focus UtF for lower level Jedi.

Two issues here. Grip/Choke does what it does because it is attempting to simulate what is represented in the films. Plain and simple. Do you ever see anyone get out of a grip/choke? Only through outside intervention (as seen in the EU). So including a "save" or a way to react (by being able to take actions) is not what is presented in the source material. If you are unhappy with the way it works, if you are the GM, change it. The rules are not sacred. By I will argue as the day is long is that it is not what we see in the source material.

Secondly, skills vs. defenses. UtF becoming less useful against equal level opponents also makes sense because that is what we see in the films as well. Rarely are Force Powers used against an equal level opponent in the films and when they are it appears that a lot of effort is put behind it to make sure the power works, I chalk that up to either spending a FP or a DP. In addition I have never had a problem with skills vs. defenses in my games.


Surprising that WotC liked to separate force powers that can be used to do the same thing I am surprised that it should even be called grip. It its purest form grip is nothing more than a type of move object. Rather than moving the object you are squeezing it.

What I mean is Move Object vs Force Disarm, Fold Space, etc etc. There are powers that could go either way.

If I were to rewrite Saga I would just call the entire thing move object with subtopics like how Use Computer is written.

Move Object:
With this you can do: Grip, Disarm, Move, etc etc.

Meh. I prefer the powers system, it is nice and elegant actually. I think the powers are distinctly different enough that it warrants them being separate powers.

-------

Cortosis round for a slug thrower? Wouldn't that be more expensive than what it is worth? How much would a cortosis round for a slug thrower cost? Also how do you handle how long the saber is deactivated for?

Start a new thread please.

Dytrrnikl
01-25-2011, 09:05 AM
Surprising that WotC liked to separate force powers that can be used to do the same thing I am surprised that it should even be called grip. It its purest form grip is nothing more than a type of move object. Rather than moving the object you are squeezing it. ...

Actually, if you remember when WEG had the license for SW, both editions of their d6 system game, the Force was broken into three skills: Control, Sense, and Alter. Now you begin the game with access to all three if you spent some of your starting 7D worth of beginner skill, or spent 20 CPs to become Force Sensitive, then advance the skills as normal per the rules. In addition, you had to learn specific powers under each skill...I think it took 5 CPs and a Tutor or double that without. As for specific powers, under Alter, you had Telekinesis (Move Object) and Telekinetic Kill (a much more freeform use of Force Grip). Affect Mind (Mind Trick) required some combination of skill rolls with Sense and Alter, or all three. The whole point being that the power format has been present in some form since the beginning...just not in a per encounter format.

Garrik, Nine-Lives
01-30-2012, 07:05 PM
This may be something you will have to regulate based on xp. If the player continues to use the same power/tactic to win in fights, just make xp they gain from the battle less. Or, if you are running a light campaign, you could throw in a jedi sentinal who can sense when a player gains a DSP. I had to do that in one game because a certain player was just gripping and lightning everything in sight, and never used other means to advance combat. That NPC kinda kept things interesting, since he was a good four levels higher than the other players.
Just a thought...