PDA

View Full Version : Rules: Rapid Shot vs. Two-Weapon Fighting for Thrown Weapons



harmor
12-18-2009, 07:27 AM
To throw multiple weapons which feats work?

Point Blank Shot + Rapid Shot vs. Two-Weapon Fighting + Quick Draw with say Daggers or Darts? How does that all work?

Can I if I had Two-weapon fighting get 1 extra throw attack if I have Rapid Shot with all my attacks at -2? (Primary, -4, Secondary, -4, then extra primary attack at -4)???

Please advise.

liverole
12-18-2009, 09:16 AM
I believe the first set of feats apply to ranged weapons only and not thrown melee weapons.

Sascha
12-18-2009, 12:35 PM
From the SRD, Equipment: Melee and Ranged Weapons - "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee." (emphasis mine)

From the SRD, Feats: Quick Draw - "A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow)."

Sounds like you could use Rapid Shot and Quick Draw to throw multiple weapons as an attack, and Point-Blank Shot would give a +1 within 30'.

WhiteTiger
12-18-2009, 12:53 PM
As I understand it.. you can throw a number of weapons equal to your normal number of attacks. The problem is determining how many you can wield. Rules as written would seem to indicate one per hand. The rules don't seem to show what kind of action is required to swap a weapon from one hand to another.


Point blank shot - should count towards all ranged attacks including thrown.

Rapid shot only works if you are using ammunition type rounds. Darts & shuriken yes but daggers no.

Quick draw would allow to draw another dagger but not needed if using darts and/or shurken. I do not know if this helps for throwing it.

I don't see how 2-weapon would help since that feat I felt is intended for melee and not thrown. I do not have answer for this. The rules don't say.

Personally, I would house-rule something like you can hold 3 daggers in one hand and throw with the other.

maybe someone else can help out with this.

Frobozz
12-23-2009, 04:08 PM
Point blank shot works as normal.

We allow rapid-shot for all thrown weapons only if you can hold both weapons in one hand and throw them both effectively; thus, darts, shuriken and small daggers are allowable. Throwing axes, boomerangs, spears, and javalins are out.

Quick-draw is only required to get a second combat action if you're trying to draw any of these weapons with only one hand, including darts and shuriken.

We allow 2-handed throwing (having a dagger in each hand for example and throwing both in the same attack) but apply the standard penalty to hit for not having Two-Weapon Fighting. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat does NOT apply to thrown weapons, and we don't have any feat which would negate this penalty.

We also allow Multi-shot as well for thrown weapons if you can hold both weapons in one hand and throw them effectively. This includes darts, shuriken and tossing daggers V for Vendetta style. :)

nijineko
12-24-2009, 01:38 AM
strictly speaking, two-weapon fighting does not apply to thrown or projectile weapons. one (of two) exceptions i'm aware of, is when the character has more than three arms and can wield dual bows (or more)....

rapid shot and improved rapid shot are useful for getting more attacks, but to really get a lot of attacks you need to use a monk with a monk weapon that can be thrown... ie: shuriken; or other special throw-able dagger-sized monk weapon. in such a case you could throw shuriken for your flurry, and then use your off hand to throw more shuriken. this is the second exception... where the two-weapon fighting feat applies to offset the penalty for your off-hand attacks, which you then rapid shot.

the problem with that trick is that all the penalties stack, making it ineffective against mid to high ac opponents. improved rapid shot helps a bit, as does the certain prestige class(es), if you can manage them as a monk.... nonetheless, having a storm of shuriken is a sweet effect.

i'm pulling this from memory, so for completely accurate info, get the 3.5 faq file and look up monks and two-weapon fighting and rapid shot. ^^

oh never mind, my curiosity overcame my laziness, i'll quote it here (emphasis added):


Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine
a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her
penalties on attack rolls?

A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other
character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an off-
hand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for two-
weapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.

For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally
make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of
blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any
special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she
wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to
accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8
penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light
weapon in her off hand).

If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only
a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off
hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand
during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks,
each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to
be with her off-hand weapon.

A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can
make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows.
Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three
off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five
attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any
weapons she carries in her primary hand.

If the same monk also
has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her
flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged
attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her
primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer
a –2 penalty.

Thus, her full attack array looks like this:
+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with
shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.

improved rapid shot will negate that last -2 penalty, and you can get your monk's bab over +15 if you use the tashalatora feat in conjunction with an appropriate prestige class-assuming your dm allows you to, as the feat's wording implies base classes and it's an eberron based feat.




Point blank shot works as normal.

We allow rapid-shot for all thrown weapons only if you can hold both weapons in one hand and throw them both effectively; thus, darts, shuriken and small daggers are allowable. Throwing axes, boomerangs, spears, and javalins are out.

Quick-draw is only required to get a second combat action if you're trying to draw any of these weapons with only one hand, including darts and shuriken.

We allow 2-handed throwing (having a dagger in each hand for example and throwing both in the same attack) but apply the standard penalty to hit for not having Two-Weapon Fighting. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat does NOT apply to thrown weapons, and we don't have any feat which would negate this penalty.

We also allow Multi-shot as well for thrown weapons if you can hold both weapons in one hand and throw them effectively. This includes darts, shuriken and tossing daggers V for Vendetta style. :)

here is the faq take on this idea:


Can I throw weapons with both hands? What happens
if I also use Rapid Shot?

The two-weapon fighting rules allow you to use thrown
weapons in both hands. As described on page 160 in the PH, a
dart or a shuriken is treated as a light weapon for the purpose of
two-weapon fighting, while bolas, javelins, nets, or slings are
treated as one-handed weapons. For other thrown weapons,
compare the weapon’s weight to those listed here. Generally, a
thrown weapon that weighs less than 1 pound (at Medium size)
is effectively a light weapon for this purpose. Weapons already
defined as light weapons are also considered light.

As long as you can draw additional thrown weapons as a
free action (such as from the Quick Draw feat), there’s no
reason you can’t also use the Rapid Shot feat to get an extra
throw with your primary hand. For example, if a 4th-level
fighter has Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, and Two-Weapon
Fighting, he can throw two daggers with his primary hand and
a third with his off hand. His adjusted base attack bonus is +0
with each dagger (+4 base attack bonus, –2 for using a light
weapon in his off hand, –2 for using Rapid Shot).

harmor
12-24-2009, 06:22 AM
Do you have a link to this faq?

Frobozz
12-28-2009, 01:53 PM
Good question, where is this FAQ?

Here's some wrenches in the works... what about hand crossbows with rapid reload, rapid shot and two-weapon fighting? Assuming a total unmodified weapon bonus of +10 would it be: (+6/+6) onhand, (+6) offhand for a full attack action?

Granted, rapidly reloading a pair of hand-crossbows would be kinda ridiculous in this manner, but I'm in a campaign now with essentially magical guns, and we're kinda treating them like hand-crossbows that instantly reload (the Rapid Reload feat has been extended in this campaign to reloading one of these guns as a free action as opposed to a simple action).

cplmac
12-29-2009, 06:07 PM
As a DM/GM, I would have to say that you can't use a crossbow or regular bow as a weapon if your character is using two weapon fighting. This is due to the fact that it takes two hands to load and or opperate these weapons. Without looking, I am sure that there are some pole arms that also require using two hands and would exempt them also.

karlsmith
01-13-2010, 12:38 PM
As a DM/GM, I would have to say that you can't use a crossbow or regular bow as a weapon if your character is using two weapon fighting. This is due to the fact that it takes two hands to load and or opperate these weapons. Without looking, I am sure that there are some pole arms that also require using two hands and would exempt them also.

so don't use weapons that requires both hands, you can use black jack weapon (http://www.weapons-universe.com/Personal_Defense/Leather_Billy_Clubs.shtml) , knives, sticks and more ..

BlackFox
02-13-2010, 09:59 PM
Don't mean to dig up an old thread, but found this thread when searching the internet for a ruling on something (And its what prompted me to join the forums here.) I'm posting it up to get peoples opinions on if this sounds legit.

I've been working on a build that, assuming I did everything right, Can throw 16 Daggers in one round. It uses Two weapon fighting, along with Master Thrower, to accomplish this.

First off, I'd like to start off saying that, while Two weapon fighting may imply melee, it doesn't say anything about not working for thrown weapons, and indeed Quick draw says you can now throw weapon at your full normal attack rate, implying that if your full normal attack rate is 7 attacks a round (At full bab with all non-epic TwF feats) then you can throw 7 thrown weapons in a round, regardless of how many hands you have, or how many you can carry. That said, onto the build.

By combining Fighter, Master Thrower, and Tempest (All full BaB classes) I have been able to throw 16 daggers in a round. Fighter to get the pre-reqs for Master throw as my 6th level, then full master throw, more fighter, then tempest (To lower the penalty for TwF to nothing with 4 levels of tempest.) At 20th level, with Full BaB, and not counting any sort of Dex bonus, using Rapid-shot+Greater TwF+Palm throw from master thrower, I get 8 attacks a round +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 (on hand) +18/+13/8 (off-hand), with 2 daggers per attack, for a total of 16 daggers a round.

Now, to me that sounds right. The double-toss ability of Master Thrower actually also implies that Two-weapon fighting can be used with Thrown weapons, as it clarifies that you get to use your full Strength bonus with both attacks when using Double Toss (Versus the normal half str bonus for the off-hand).

And then as for Rapid shot, using the same logic as before with Quickdraw and Two-weapon fighting, it implies that if your full normal attacks is 8 (With Rapid shot and a ranged attack) then you can throw 8 attacks a round.

..... Sorry if this post was too long or anything.. its my first post on the boards here so I wasn't sure how things went... Please, let me know what you all think.
--- Merged from Double Post ---
Ok... and I feel stupid now... Just realized that this was in the Pathfinder section, so alot of that doesn't fit (Since the complete books aren't pathfinder legal to my knowledge....) However, I do believe my thoughts on the Rapid-shot, quick draw, and Two-weapon fighting still apply.

....and sorry for the double post.

erwin.zeez
05-05-2010, 12:56 AM
so don't use weapons that requires both hands, you can use black jack weapon (http://www.weapons-universe.com/Personal_Defense/Leather_Billy_Clubs.shtml) , knives, sticks and more ..
ha ha ha ha
nice \
but what is the basic reason you are trying to tell us