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Xandros
12-16-2009, 06:20 AM
One thing I have always found missing from D&D and D20 was any sort of chase rules. So many adventure movies have great chase scenes. D&D simply has a races base speed. Assuming all characters of the same race run at exactly the same speed all the time and the faster race will move at 20 ft. per turn and will always catch the slower race or always get away from the slower race. Has anyone ever integrated any sort of chase or race system into a 3rd edition system, or found any supplement source that had such a system? If so how does it work?

Ishcumbeebeeda
12-16-2009, 04:09 PM
We had a pretty epic chase in a game I was in once, but we didn't use any existing rules really, we just did what seemed logical. I was chasing something whose base speed was higher than mine, but he had to slow down to go around corners and I'd catch up a little, then I'd hit the corner and slow down too and he'd get a little ahead again.... eventually during one of the closer moments I chucked a dagger at him and crit. Apparently, even though your arms and legs tend to wave around a lot when running, your head stays pretty steady! Though that doesn't really hep you huh? I guess my advice would be to ad-hoc your own rules when the situation presents itself.

wizarddog
12-16-2009, 04:46 PM
DM guide 2 has mechanics for a chase.

DMMike
12-16-2009, 04:48 PM
I do something like this:
When base movement differs, the faster character should win, unless he gets tied up in an obstacle.

When base movement is the same, make opposing DEX checks, and the difference can be the number of feet gained (lost) in a round. You should probably give the person in the lead a -2 penalty for having to blaze a trail.

outrider
12-16-2009, 05:48 PM
the malhavoc press book the Book of Roguish Luck has a pretty good section on chasing somebody in a crowd.

d-_-b
12-18-2009, 06:08 AM
I think that there should be some rules that allowed a character to push himself to run faster but I have difficulty seeing how such rules could work. Firstly, a human runs faster than a dwarf and no matter how much they both push themselves the dwarf will always have shorter legs and a stockier build though he may have better endurance. My real beef is with characters whose base speed is identical: if they start out with a 50 foot gap between them in theory that gap will remain at least until they have to start rolling for fatigue, though difficult ground etc. might interfere.

Arkhemedes
12-18-2009, 07:46 PM
There is a recently published book for Pathfinder (although it is not an official Pathfinder book) called The Tome of Lost Secrets that has an entire chapter devoted to chases with some extensive and thorough rules for those who love chases.

cigamnogard
12-18-2009, 08:17 PM
One of my fondest D&D moments was when my Satyr barbarian reliased that he was coming out of his rage next round, the wizard was dead, invisible, and out of spells (no teleport out of the middle of the enemy's base camp), and the haflling rogue was hurt bad. The mission was accomplished the bad guy leader was dead. We had cut the head off the enemy - now we just had to survive the thrashing around!
My character sheathed his sword, grabbed the rogue, and began walking out of the enemy armies encampment.
Yes he is fatigued, but he is a satyr (base speed 40) barbarian (+10 speed) which means he can move at 50/round. Our enemies humans in full plate = 20 / round unless they charge = 40 / round or try to chase = triple move = 60 / round but cannot attack.
Yes! We had ourselves a chase!
Did the characters make it - no, the wizard was already dead ;) but yes, the rogue and the satyr made it :)

Xandros
12-20-2009, 12:56 PM
First, Thank you for the replies. Sorry it took me a while to get back to this topic. I wanted to check into the suggestions of DMGII and Book of Roguish Luck.

The DMGII doesn't really have 'mechanics' for chases. To me it just basically describes what a chase is. "If the pursuer and her quarry have the same speed, the pursuing character needs to gain speed advantages in the course of the pursuit to catch her opponent." But it doesn't explain any mechanic on how they would do that. And then it lists that if they are of different speeds, then the one who has the higher racial speed wins. Which is good for people who want to keep it quick and simple. However, I want to have it where even though it is unlikely the slower person has a chance to get away from or catch the faster person. Much like in combat the weaker character has a chance to win the battle, rather than just compairing their base attack and STR modifiers and declaring the person with the highest score the automatic winner.

The Book of Roguish Luck did have a good system, but I need to adapt it a little more to my tastes (but I do that with pretty much everything). I figure I will make up an untrained Running skill. Rather than basing it on the DEX modifier as in Roguish Luck, I am thinking of making it an average of the characters Strength and Agility (I seperate the characters manual Dexterity and Agility in my game). Then Constitution modifier will come into play for longer chases. Does that sound reasonable?

I will try to find Tomb of Lost Secrets, it may provide me with some more ideas. (Edit: It's actually the Tome of Secrets. I found the pdf online and am going to order it)

Of course there will be other things I will need to add on like the effects of obstacles, and criticle fumbles, but that will be easy.

ronpyatt
12-21-2009, 01:55 AM
I could see using a mod number of d4s that add to the base move. The one being chased can choose the obstacle difficulty they want to utilize in the terrain.


Maneuvers (zigzag, erratic patterns) = Dex Mod in d4s.
Sprint = Con Mod in d4s. (Will save DC15 or suffer temporary -1 Con)
Knock over objects to slow down pursuers = Str Mod in d4s subtract from pursuers move.
Jump over hurdles with Acrobatics check granting a +d4 for every 5 over the target DC.
Fake a direction (Bluff check) +d4 for every +5 over DC.

Arkhemedes
12-21-2009, 08:30 AM
Yeah, you're right. It is The Tome of Secrets. Don't know where I got the 'Lost' part from.

Xandros
12-24-2009, 02:06 PM
Thanks for all the help and info. I've got the stuff I need. However I would like to know what people think of me basing a running skill for chases off of an average of STR and Agility. As I stated, in my game, I have seperated manual Dexterity and Agility (which involves body movement like dodging). I also use an average of 2 attributes on a few other skills that I don't feel are reflected entirely by a single attribute, so it wouldn't be odd. Does using those 2 attributes just seem reasonable to people?

d-_-b
12-24-2009, 04:00 PM
I would think a skill for prolonged running/physical exertion would have to be tied to constitution and augmented by endurance feats, etc. Strength figures in naturally in the form of weight allowance etc. so I don't think you should mix that in there. You could use dexterity for dodging but in effect I would adapt tumbling for this purpose.
Perhaps, rather than making up one or more skills, you should make up a series of obstacles which might be bypassed using existing skills such as jumping, balance and tumble, so that you know which skill rolls may be used to pass different obstacles.

Xandros
12-24-2009, 05:48 PM
I'm referring to just the running/chase part. I already pointed out that Constitution checks would be required for longer chases. I figured Strength not due to the weight allowance, but because it is a physical activity, much like climbing and swimming which both use the Strength modifier. Tumbling would come into effect, if they were doing anything similiar to Tumbling, but not when they are just running.


Perhaps, rather than making up one or more skills, you should make up a series of obstacles which might be bypassed using existing skills such as jumping, balance and tumble

Well again those other skills would come into effect during times that they are needed, but not when it is just involving the standard chase. If a chase just happened to break out in a dungeon, I really don't want to suddenly place a bunch of obstacles there for them to bypass using different skills.

"Okay, you're going to chase the kobold that stole your gear? I didn't mention it before, but there is a set of parallel bars and a balance beam that you will need to get by to catch him."

Obviously in a street chase or even in a cave, there might be natural obstacles and even things that characters can use, that would require seperate checks, but that is a different story.

ronpyatt
12-25-2009, 05:59 PM
You might be on to something there. Sprinting needs strength, but you burn though CON when you push yourself. Use +5 Move for every +1 in STR used (up to character's max STR mod). Make a Fort Save 10+ (extra move times the number of rounds pushed) or fatigued or CON damage.

d-_-b
12-25-2009, 07:40 PM
"Okay, you're going to chase the kobold that stole your gear? I didn't mention it before, but there is a set of parallel bars and a balance beam that you will need to get by to catch him."

With respect, I would expect the DM to describe a dungeon to the extend that the players had a pretty exact idea how the layout was and what features it contained.
My point was that any environment in D&D in effect has features like walls, hedges, loose or slippery ground, etc. already and that these already are worked into the skill rules in the shape of target numbers and restriction for difficult ground. Unless you want to make up a new set of rules to speed up the process of getting the hell out of Dodge you simply have to plan ahead and make a list of obstacles and ways of bypassing them.

After all IF the kobold is going to steal the characters stuff you, being the DM, would be well informed of this fact before hand AND the obstacles to be passed WOULD already be part of your dungeon ecology.

None of these obstacles need be very difficult to pass though some should be as a would be kobold thief would have planned his getaway so that he would have a fair chance of getting away. It is the possibility of setbacks more than the assurance thereof that makes for a good chase.

Xandros
12-25-2009, 11:38 PM
With respect, I would expect the DM to describe a dungeon to the extend that the players had a pretty exact idea how the layout was and what features it contained. Quite often there are some rooms or hallways that are bare. Many modules will have bare rooms even. So do you just not allow a the characters to have a chase in those areas. Or does it go more like this "Okay the chase begins. Make a tumble check." "Okay, what am I tumbling around or against?" "just make a tumble check."? For that matter what if the tumble check fails, or even if it succeeds? Then what? How many feet are gained or lost to the basic move?

My point was that any environment in D&D in effect has features like walls, hedges, loose or slippery ground, etc. already and that these already are worked into the skill rules in the shape of target numbers and restriction for difficult ground. And those would of course add to the chase and would be different checks but would not be the basic part of the chase. Those same walls, hedges and loose or slippery ground are things that may affect people in combat also. I would not suggest that combat rules are not needed and you can just use the balance or tumble rules. For example if 2 combatants were fighting on crumbling rock bridge, they would need to make the balance checks to keep their footing along with still attempting to make their attack rolls. With a chase the running (or in some cases riding or swimming) checks would be made to determine gaining or losing ground while balance, tumble, jump or other checks would also need to be made to navigate obstacles. A chase breaks down to the same thing as a race. If 2 characters decide to have a race in a race track in the colliseum with firm footing, would you use the tumble check, and again, how do you determine the gains? When people race in real life, do you translate that as tumbling?
Unless you want to make up a new set of rules Um yeah, that is what the whole post is about. In fact I've already got the rules I need from the sources that the previous posters provided. I am only checking now to see if the stats I listed made sense to people.
you simply have to plan ahead and make a list of obstacles and ways of bypassing them. So I should make a list of obstacles and ways of bypassing them in every room and hallway of any dungeons I create, along with any streets for any cities I create just in case a chase should happen in any of them? Characters don't always do what you want/expect when and where you want them to, and I don't tend to lead them by the nose and plan what their actions should be. It seems easier to make a rule to cover the possibility if it comes up rather than to plan every single room as if it will come up. So what I have is a rule for gaining distance from a pursuer or catching up with the prey. For example if their is 20 feet between the chaser and the chased, the chaser is trying to close that distance and the chased is trying to lengthen it. Each needs to make a check to see if they can do so and if so by how much. If the chase were happening down a city street, and the character also decides to climb a stack of boxes, they will need to make their climb check as will the pursuer, if they decide to roll under a cart they will need to pass a tumble check. As the DM I would have the environment set up with those things, but I can not make them do those things, and if they chose not to and decide to just do a straight sprint down the straight street and try to out run them, well I need to determine if they do, and now I have a rule for it.

d-_-b
12-26-2009, 03:25 PM
I am by no means telling you to lead them by the nose nor am I suggesting you meticulously plan out the near vicinity of any setting. You could, however, make a printout of relevant tables and perhaps even just sit down one sunday morning and find out what kind of obstacle a cartwheel, a crowd, a muddy street, etc. represents.

I realize that this thread is about chase rules and (perhaps) making them up. Be that as it may, I got to thinking it is worth asking whether or not there is a real lack of applicable rules or it is simply the case that some of us have felt a need for them. I too am guilty of this, and I implore the effort to create some transparency in this some what neglected aspect of the game. As it stands these "neglected parts" are IMO acceleration, deceleration and turning, but it may be that I am simply unaware of applicable rules.

I do not like the idea that a character who has spent his leveling and feats getting his pace up suddenly has his speed compromised by dexterity based rules for running short distances. A slower character should have to jump, tumble, and climb to gain ground and hope for the misfortunes of his quarry who is otherwise fast enough to run around that which would otherwise require him/her to jump, tumble and climb.
Last but not least: If two characters decide to have a race on a race track in the colliseum with firm footing I would expect the faster to win! Winning a race on a track is generally a question of a few hundreds of a second which is hardly applicable in a D&D game. After all, If winning was THAT important in such close a race I would simply cut down my opponent on the straight and leave him or her bleeding on the ground while I waltz to the finish -much like the way, btw, that I would cut down my quarry in a chase...

Xandros
12-26-2009, 04:54 PM
If two characters decide to have a race on a race track in the colliseum with firm footing I would expect the faster to win! And how do you determing who is faster?? So two humans have a race. Both of their speeds are 30'. Apparently there is a tie every single time. When you raced your friends as a kid, did the same person win (the faster one) every single time you raced? For that matter even athletes running a race, is the same person guaranteed to win every single time they race? To simply say the faster one will win, is to me about like saying the stronger one will always win in a fight. There is no need to roll for to hit in combat. Just add the characters STR modifier to their Base Attack. The one with the higher number wins the battle without any roll.

Note that this could apply to various other situations. 2 characters (of course anytime I say characters, it could also refer to a character and an Npc, hero and villain etc.) both run to be the first one to touch the orb of infinite power. So if they are both of the same race (or even different races with the same speed listing) will they both reach it at the same exact moment?
--- Merged from Double Post ---

After all, If winning was THAT important in such close a race I would simply cut down my opponent on the straight and leave him or her bleeding on the ground while I waltz to the finish -much like the way, btw, that I would cut down my quarry in a chase...
I believe the olympic committee frowns on such things, but I am not sure. Of course cutting the other character down, if you can draw your weapon and reach them, or shooting them, is always an option. However I can not force my players to choose to do that. If they make other choices, ie the chase/race, I need to somehow be able to judge that. If a player states that they are chasing after someone, I don't want to tell them "okay, you pull out your crossbow and shoot them.".
--- Merged from Double Post ---

I do not like the idea that a character who has spent his leveling and feats getting his pace up suddenly has his speed compromised by dexterity based rules for running short distances.I am not aware of any rules about leveling and feats that affect pace. If there were, they would of course be effective, in gaining or closing distance in a race/chase. If you knew of these rules that affect a characters pace, I wish you would have mentioned them before when I asked about any rules that covered such things. You can point them out to me now. They might add to the rules I now have.

Soft Serve
12-27-2009, 01:59 AM
Did anybody mention the rules on Dexterity checks in a chase yet? Where if the two people in the chase make DEX checks the winner basically wins.

I think the actual rule says they move a space closer if the chaser wins and a space further away if the chased wins.

d-_-b
12-27-2009, 08:48 AM
Amongst other both the Barbarian and the Scout gains speed bonuses as part of their level progression. The Run Feat let's you run x5 times your pace. The Fast Acrobatics ability of the Thief Acrobat allows him/her to perform acrobatic feats at full speed. The Dash Feat adds +5 to a characters speed in light or no armor.

This is what I can think of on the top of my mind but I'm sure there are many more examples:)

templeorder
12-27-2009, 10:55 AM
This is a basic GMing question more than mechanics. Relevant skills include running/riding - i.e. your mode of transportation. Factor in experience, terrain familiarity, stamina/endurance, perception, luck - use attributes at a penalty where no real skill exists. I always differntiate between mechanics driven and stroy driven scenarios (like for pitched, large battles as an alternate example) - as a GM i have a lot of freedom in story based scenarios. I can describe it, throw in random events (slips, losing someone, a required jump, etc.) and i can make it memorable and crazy. If you want a mechanics based chase, its more difficult - i've adapted systems with great car chase rules to other systems before with varying results. Mixed is the best - my policy is [as a general rule] not to let random rolls win over quick thought and involved playing.

Nothing beats a quick few parameters written down as a GM that i can use to make a story based chase scene. The mechanics heavy solution requires less thought from a PC and falls more on the roll-playing side vs. (my preferred) role-playing emphasis.

Xandros
12-27-2009, 12:11 PM
Amongst other both the Barbarian and the Scout gains speed bonuses as part of their level progression. The Run Feat let's you run x5 times your pace. The Fast Acrobatics ability of the Thief Acrobat allows him/her to perform acrobatic feats at full speed. The Dash Feat adds +5 to a characters speed in light or no armor.

Okay those are things that affect the characters base speed and are clearly figured in and easily. They aren't disregarded. If a character is human their base move is 30 feet. Whatever feats, equipment or anything else they have that adds to that, lets say it brings their total move to 40 ft. In a race/chase if they make a successful check to gain ground they would move their standard 40 ft. + even more (don't have my rules right in front of me at the moment so I don't have the actual stats) let's say off the top of my head then 45 ft. A character chasing them without any of the other characters bonuses would still have a base move of 30 ft. if they try to gain ground, if they succeeded the very best they could at their check they could still only move 35 ft. Still not enough to close the distance in a short race/chase even if the first person didn't gain any ground and only moved their base 40 ft. So no one "has his speed compromised by dexterity based rules" who has gotten his pace up through leveling and feats. I never said 'just roll a 20 sided dice and whoever rolls the highest wins automatically, don't even look at base speeds etc.'

I might also point out that none of those Feats, Class abilities etc. that you listed, have any adjustments for the Tumble check, which is what you suggested using instead of chase rules, so if you did that all those things gained by leveling would be disregarded and the one with the highest Tumble check would win the chase/race regardless of the Barbarian or scout level speed bonuses, Run Feat, etc.

A character that has gotten his pace up through leveling, feats and equipment isn't likely to lose to a roll of the die, anymore than a character that has gotten his combat abilities up through leveling, feats and equipment is likely fall in battle due to the role of a die to a character that hasn't.

And for ease of play you can say whoever has the higher move based on their base move for race and any feats, gear etc. automatically wins. That makes sense. However, what do you do if both characters have none of those feats, and are of the same race? What if two characters have the run feat? Is it an automatic tie every single time??
--- Merged from Double Post ---

Did anybody mention the rules on Dexterity checks in a chase yet? Where if the two people in the chase make DEX checks the winner basically wins.


I think the actual rule says they move a space closer if the chaser wins and a space further away if the chased wins.
Right. It's not like a character with a base speed of 20' beats a character with a base speed of 30' just because he rolled higher.

--- Merged from Double Post ---

This is a basic GMing question more than mechanics. Relevant skills include running/riding - i.e. your mode of transportation. Factor in experience, terrain familiarity, stamina/endurance, perception, luck - use attributes at a penalty where no real skill exists. I always differntiate between mechanics driven and stroy driven scenarios (like for pitched, large battles as an alternate example) - as a GM i have a lot of freedom in story based scenarios. I can describe it, throw in random events (slips, losing someone, a required jump, etc.) and i can make it memorable and crazy. If you want a mechanics based chase, its more difficult - i've adapted systems with great car chase rules to other systems before with varying results. Mixed is the best - my policy is [as a general rule] not to let random rolls win over quick thought and involved playing.

Nothing beats a quick few parameters written down as a GM that i can use to make a story based chase scene. The mechanics heavy solution requires less thought from a PC and falls more on the roll-playing side vs. (my preferred) role-playing emphasis.
I agree with this 100%! I was really only looking for a very basic mechanic, which can be expanded on with whatever flavor the GM adds based on the surrounding territory, circumstances etc. I mean really that's the way all the skills work, or can be dropped or handled fast and lose for roleplaying purposes. Never let die rolls get in the way of having fun.
The thing is there isn't even a running skill in D20. I have the mechanics that I need now. I am still thinking of the attributes used for the running skill to be an average of Strength and Agility. Like I said, I use split attributes on a few other skills, so it wouldn't be odd for my game. I have also split Dexterity which deals with manual dexterity (picking locks etc.) from Agility with is body movement (dodging etc.).

The Tome of Secrets that was mentioned has a great mechanic (IMO). Basically it has a series of manuevers that could be attempted in a chase. The main one being gain ground. It is more complex than it needs to be, but easy to just use what you need. It is also described in terms of vehicle chases, but easily adaptable to foot. The thing is that players don't even need to know the chase rules. They just say what they are doing, which for quick and easy, or non-imaginative players will likely be 'trying to get away' or 'trying to catch', and the GM determines what manuever that would be. So it's not a new rule the players need to learn, so much as a solution the GM has available if a situation arises where it is needed.

A race/chase could be very quick and simple or long and complex. From a quick (one check) dash to see who reaches the orb first, to a long chase through the streets ala Indiana Jones or James Bond, with obstacles thrown in, some tumble checks, climbing, a few breaks for some quick combat....... It's all up to the GM and the Players, how much they want to spread it out and how complex they want to make it. However its nice to have a mechanic available, even if it is just a very simple idea.

tesral
12-28-2009, 12:01 PM
So I should make a list of obstacles and ways of bypassing them in every room and hallway of any dungeons I create, along with any streets for any cities I create just in case a chase should happen in any of them?

This is where the GM's imagination takes over. No, you don't need a list of everything but as the chase progresses you should place as appropriate such items as would reasonably be present.

A parking lot would have parked cars, a street would have traffic. Ruins would have rubble. A Hot dog cart should not suddenly appear down the empty alley they just traversed. It is appropriate for the busy intersection.

Mind you the chasee will have to deal with them first. D&D combat and movement rules are not good at fluid movement. They are designed around the very restrictive combat round, not for movement would should be simultaneous, not character by character.

Xandros
12-28-2009, 02:27 PM
This is where the GM's imagination takes over. No, you don't need a list of everything but as the chase progresses you should place as appropriate such items as would reasonably be present.

A parking lot would have parked cars, a street would have traffic. Ruins would have rubble. A Hot dog cart should not suddenly appear down the empty alley they just traversed. It is appropriate for the busy intersection.

Mind you the chasee will have to deal with them first. D&D combat and movement rules are not good at fluid movement. They are designed around the very restrictive combat round, not for movement would should be simultaneous, not character by character.
These would all be a big part of most chases, especially if you use the James Bond, Indiana Jones models of chases. It depends on how much detail and flavor you want to add. Believe me I would/will be using a lot of these. Honestly most dungeons have enough descriptive detail that the ideas are already there, and many players would be able to come up with some ideas on their own and may even stump the GM with things they didn't even think of for objects in the room. The problem with just using the obstacles idea for a chase is that it doesn't cover enough information.

For example, what happens when the chasee makes the tumble check and the chaser doesn't? Does the chasee win? Do they gain distance? If so how much? Does the chaser get delayed? If so by how much? The obstacle solution also does not cover things like the dash for the orb, which I personally don't want to place an obstacle into.

The obstacle solution alone also does make the character who gained pace and speed as they leveled lose out to a character that used their levels for acrobatics. By ideal rules this should be a possibility but not an absolute. What I mean is the acrobatic character uses those things to gain distance from a faster character. The faster character may still win because they are fast and just had their speed delayed/decreased. The distance between them is just closed or lengthened by the checks. In fact the chasee may roll under a cart as they charge down the street. The chaser can also attempt to roll under the cart or instead go around it, using up more of their movement for that round. If they are fast but not nimble it may be a better choice.

I hope I am explaining things clearly. I am a little adle headed at the moment. Basically I am saying that the obstacle solution is a big part of it, but is only a part of it, or needs to be explained further (ie. what failure/success results in as mentioned earlier).

Like I said, I have the rules that I need now. Feel free to keep posting to exchange ideas with others though. I will give a brief rundown of the chase rules I will be using when I am more clear headed, but I think I have given a basic idea spread out through some of the posts.

d-_-b
12-29-2009, 12:26 PM
Xandros, I fear we have arrived at an impasse if all you have gleaned from my previous posts is that I want to replace a chase roll with a tumble check. Even so, I look forward to a rundown of the chase rules you've arrived at very much as I recognize that despite the game rules that I have drawn attention to the game is sorely lacking in the chase department. This is in part because, as Tesral pointed out, D&D conflict resolution is based around tactical movement.

tesral
12-29-2009, 06:28 PM
Might I suggest dropping the ridged "round" and movement rules and deal with the matter of distance and speed complicated by obstacles.

Xandros
12-29-2009, 09:56 PM
Might I suggest dropping the ridged "round" and movement rules and deal with the matter of distance and speed complicated by obstacles.
Yes. The usual movement and 'round' tracking might be hard to do away with if combat was going on with other members of the same group at the same time, but I can't hardly see that happening. In just dealing with a chase scene, I would drop the round and movement rules and just deal with the distance between the 2 (or more) characters and the manuevers and obstacles and just deal with how much distance is changed between them because of manuevers and obstacles.

In fact, if a case did arrive where part of the group is dealing with rounded combat and another part is involved in a chase, rather than deal with them at the same time, I would try to deal with just one of them at a time if the players were agreeable. In other words finish up the combat and then deal with the chase that had been going on. Or vice versa.

Soft Serve
12-31-2009, 04:09 PM
If you make the "chaser" a giant boulder and the "chased" Indiana Jones then we already know who's going to win...I say just stick to that premise and don't budge, even if your players complain.