PDA

View Full Version : Why I am Back with GURPS :-)



trechriron
11-01-2009, 04:45 AM
Posted in a SJGames thread here (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=63838), but reproduced here for P&PG Games pleasure... (My two major posts)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=63838)

Inspired from "why is GURPS not as popular as d20" and "The OTHER GURPS renaming it" threads and perhaps a tinge of personal guilt...



GURPS is not popular, it needs a new {adventure, setting, supplement, how-to guide} to invigorate its market presence, GURPS is too math intensive, GURPS character creation takes too long, GURPS is hard, GURPS causes geek-o-plasmy, GURPS is dry/boring/too generic...

*sigh*

I have pondered these "problems" much lately with the several threads bantering about the last 60 days. GURPS has some misconceptions out there. I think the desire of these threads are rooted in these misconceptions and what people perceive is a problem "selling the game". A new name is not going to change anything. A new setting or adventure is not going to help. Only the fan base through playing and sharing the game are going to increase the market value of GURPS and ultimately overcome the misconceptions. Even with our efforts it's likely GURPS will never overcome all its misconceptions or enamor its detractors. But we could be trying harder. At least, that is what I realized over the last couple of days.


I used to be an Amway distributor in my younger more ideal years. Eventually they changed their name in hopes of overcoming the stereotype of the "evil pushy MLM pod people". Problem was, Quixtar was considered just as "annoying" to people as Amway. MLM is MLM. Some people are going to be interested and others are going to find out your pitching an MLM and are instantly turned off. Also, the name change backfired. Many prospects considered it underhanded to be at yet another "Amway" pitch when they were pulled in under another pretext.

They eventually just went back to commercials talking about Amway. Because in the end, the time the company has been around and the name had more brand power than they could fight against. The focus had to change from a simple NAME to the behavior and approach of the distributors themselves. Impressions, misconceptions, and opinions don't change overnight. These kinds of real changes require substance. An investment of integrity and elbow grease from people who sincerely want the perception to change. Want another stark reality check? People still don't generally like MLM pitches including Amway. But the efforts of the company and distributors have started changing how people perceive Amway; more so than any other initiative the company has tried.

GURPS as a name is perfect. It describes EXACTLY what the game is doing. It has years of brand power and recognition. The misconceptions around GURPS are only going to be overcome with people playing the game and realizing the benefits of using GURPS. Also, consider that as my generation (class of 1980 inducted fat-beard grognards) ages, we have found less time to create and tinker. In my case, my desire to make my hobby a business has interfered with my deep need to create and express. I don't think I am alone in my dysfunction. Why not just support the game I love and not worry about the business? Is it really that hard to pull something together with GURPS? Are we not just getting distracted and lazy? I feel like I have been. Distracted and lazy.

Let's be honest. Even us GURPS fans don't help most of the time. There are a few diehards and then there are those of us with system ADD that are easily distracted. We sympathize with those who disparage GURPS because we hope to build bridges and understanding. We start fan Wikis that languish, collaborative projects that die in the creative womb, and generally carry on like a bowl of flakes surrounded by Fruit Loops in warm milk. There are people on the forums in the GURPS forum who don't like GURPS. Bah! We certainly don't need controversy, but it would be nice to see fans pitching ideas that help overcome the bias we (maybe subconsciously) see undermining the player base of GURPS. We don't need to disparage GURPS detractors. But we could revitalize a focus to inject solutions and ideas into those conversations to impress upon potential players what GURPS can do. There are piles of threads in the GURPS forum with no one is pitching GURPS system solutions or ideas. Are we missing an opportunity to Bring the GURPS?

In addition, we GURPS fans are constantly pining for the next thing but what about all the stuff we already have?!?! I have TWO shelves of GURPS stuff. Does it not bother me just a little that I have piles of GURPS stuff I could be using to run a fantastically fun RPG right now but I keep thinking "I need Low Tech or Thaumatology to REALLY pull this off...". B.S. Yeah, it bothers me now. I need to stop. I feel like my lack of support is helping a movement of fans that are actually sabotaging the support of GURPS.

I feel guilty about this (obviously!). I love GURPS. I have for some time. But I make excuses. "People won't play GURPS" "It's hard to find players" "It's too much work". Funny thing is; I am sure that if I brought an adventure with pre-gens to my monthly game day, I could find interested players who want to learn a new game or try something new. I just have to stop focusing on the misconceptions and start focusing on WHY I like GURPS and then do something with it.

After playing a multitude of games this year, I have realized I really just want to run GURPS. I am not going to compromise anymore. I have some ideas for "bringing the GURPS" so I am going to polish them up and share them. This convention I am attending next weekend is my last dalliance with other games. It's time I put my money (and time) where my mouth (and heart) is!

So, what will you do to share the game? What pet project have you put off? What Wiki needs some dusting off? What do we need to do to BRING THE GURPS?!?! I am interested in this conversation. Taking action puts us in control and gives us something we can do that doesn't' rest on the laurels of someone else. We are fans and our fanaticism can make an impact.

Anyhoo, that became a long winded diatribe! I guess I have been doing some soul searching, and pondering these threads, and I had an epiphany. My intent was not to insult anyone, so I apologize if I did. I just needed to vent/share!

Sincerely,


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=63838)

I thought maybe someone would be interested to know. How did I come to realize I wanted GURPS (again)? Here's my story.

I have looked at piles of systems, read hundreds, played dozens, and bought/sold whole collections. Except I always keep my GURPS. I have always wanted to run a regular GURPS group but (as previously mentioned) made excuses. One was a delusion. I wanted to publish a setting. I thought I could make a go of it doing my own thing, but frankly it's not what I want. I don't want to invent new systems from whole cloth; I just want to create my settings, ideas, and adventures. Then run a game with them!

I looked at lighter systems but realized after a few sessions that tweaking out the rules or looking outside the narrow scope of what those systems offered was way more work than I wanted. Things like magic and powers were under-developed and customizing them was a chore. Several systems hardly offered any magic or powers at all. So much is left out to get the "guts" published that after a few games that "emptiness" became glaring. I kept thinking to myself "I could easily tweak that out or add something new if we were playing GURPS instead". One of the games I ran had several players disappointed because we couldn't really customize spells without some serious tinkering and hand-waving. I felt like the game had short term play potential but was lacking the substance I wanted to support a longer-term campaign.

I then thought to try out the popular games because they had the largest player base. This is what people are looking for, might as well try and cater to that need. I settled down to try out several sessions of D&D 4e (Living Forgotten Realms) a couple sessions of Pathfinder and took a long look into Fantasy Craft. I was reminded why I didn't like d20 anymore, especially classes and levels. I realized that regardless of how pretty or "changed" these games were not going to inspire me again. I just don't like them. What I did garner from the popular games? The bulk of the popular games are as involved as GURPS is, both in tactical combat, character creation, and options. Why go with a game I feel is less internally consistent that GURPS?

Sprinkled in these sessions were a plethora of smaller publisher and "Indy" games; Mouse Guard, 3:16, Godlike, Danger Patrol, Starblazer Adventures, Swashbucklers of the 7 Skies. I also managed a couple World of Darkness games to boot! Recently I played Shadowrun 4e and started reading and learning Earthdawn 3e.

I experienced some interesting things.

The Indy story games I played in were hardly used in the "narrative story-focused" capacity one may have thought - even the ones "designed" to do so. At demos people tended to just play the games the same way they would any other ignoring the system parts they didn't "get". Like plot manipulation which I have not seen taken very well with most of the players introduced to the concept. Some games have different ways of presenting the same "this modifies your roll in some way" system. In the end it really is just more work to arrive at the same place; that action has a penalty or a bonus based on some situation/factor.

Also, the whole "this inspires the player to play the character in a particular way" or "this rewards a particular behavior" effect was overstated. Certainly there are some mechanics that inspire me, but I haven't met a lot of players yet that will use them. I HAVE learned some neat GM tricks and ideas from these games, but I can accomplish the bulk of these effects with GURPS. Also, there are PILES of GMs that don't bother to bring any part of the special character stuff (disads, flaws, etc.) into the game. I will, so it can't hurt to have them.

Going to "laser focused" games with "new innovative" systems didn't really impress upon me a significant difference. I don't see any reason at this point to "go light" in hopes that a mechanic is going to inspire player behavior or somehow create a more involved story. I just didn't see it. Players just ask more questions and the GM is like, just roll or "this happens" and it left a feeling of disconnection with the imaginary world and the game. I did freeform make believe when I was a young lad, and I grew up to want some actual rules for it. Systems do not create good players. Being a good player requires several things most of which is a desire to not be a jerk. A system can't protect you from the jerk.

Additionally, many games have complexity or the illusion of complexity; GURPS is not some special culprit in this arena. It took me four days to create a Shadowrun 4e Rigger, and I am still tweaking him out after the first session. It's not a bad thing, just my inexperience and the breadth of the options made for a longer haul. Such will it be for any new players of a game they don't know. I can make that process easier and faster as an experienced GM. It will depend on the investment the GM makes into the players. It is not really system specific.

Also, many games are just as "complex" or appear complex as first glance. GURPS is not unique in this area. And just like GURPS, many of these systems play just fine. Some require more referencing than others, but the universal truth of "knowing this game makes everything about this game go faster" applied to all of them.

After looking at all this I just had to ask myself "what makes this any different than GURPS?" If I can't really see any difference, than what is it about this system I like MORE than GURPS? Nothing. I guess I could learn and support and play a multitude of systems, but in the end I really just want to become proficient in one. I really like generic systems. Always have. It fits what I want and I can't compromise that anymore. If there is going to be ramp up time (and I believe there always will be) and there is going to be some time invested in character creation (and I believe there always should be) then the "benefits" of a "faster" or "lighter" game don't measure up in my mind.

So I have chosen to be a GURPS GM again. Exclusively. There are lots of people out there running other games and I am going to focus on this one.

Just my personal experience. YMMV. :-D

Skygalleons
11-01-2009, 11:34 AM
I guess I am the exact opposite when it comes to wanting to be involved with GURPS. I tried literally for years with my absolute favorite settings to get interested in GURPS, but I could not. The system is just too bloody complex. While not as bad as anything from the defunct FGU, who were at least honest enough to say "The system is complex because life is complex," GURPS manages to make even the simplest thing a week long event. Character creation or even worse, ship design are brutal. I can't speak for the math majors out there, but if your system involves cube roots, it is too complicated!

In addition to the needless, one could even say mindless, complexity, my major problem with anything designed by SJGames is the company's insistence on one second long combat rounds. As an experienced marksman, with more years in the Army than I care to remember, a GURPS character can do more in one second than any human can possibly do.

However, on the other hand, the extremely detailed nature of GURPS has one very strong plus. If you need a resource book, you simply can not beat a GURPS book. If I am running a setting and there is a GURPS book for that setting, I will snap it up as the GURPS book, even though it will never be used as the game being played, as I know it will cover the setting I am running better than anything short of a doctoral thesis on the topic.

I guess it is gamers like yourself that keep GURPS afloat as somebody must like the complexity to keep the system alive after so long. Many far easier, and in my opinion fun, systems have had their parent company fold up over the years, so who is to say which view point is right. Good on ya for sticking to your system of choice. I can admire a gamer of conviction even if I completely disagree with their opinion.

trechriron
11-02-2009, 05:55 AM
GURPS 4e fixes some of these problems.

I never bother with vehicle creation rules. I stat for what I feel fits what I need and go. There really is no vehicle design system for GURPS 4 yet, but Spaceships has a nice, simpler approach to designing space ships.

GURPS basic system and combat are quite simple. You can skip all the options. Also, you can skip stuff that some insist is "inherent" to the game. For example, why not just say rounds are 3 seconds with the same limitations? Is it really going to break anything? Nope. I have piles of GURPS books. I have not read one thing in any of them that would suggest a one-second combat round is paramount to the system.

One of the misconceptions I don't understand is the complexity issue. 4 stats, hit points, fatigue points, skills, 3d6 roll under target number. The rules state you can use the detailed modifier tables OR just ballpark a difficulty (table included with examples of how that might apply) or just apply a modifier that makes sense to you. So you could look up the speed and distance of a target or just say "that will be -5 to skill because the car is moving really fast and far away".

The "core engine" of GURPS is not complicated. Character Creation is involved but not complex, simply because there are so many options. Want to make it faster? Easy.

1) Create a standard template with all the options you want characters to have for your game.
2) Add on various roles you envision for characters in your game and create that many templates from your base template
3) Create "lenses" with some options (like packages) for players to pick.
4) Create equipment packages for players to pick.
5) Give out total points for the package and skip disads. Let enterprising players choose disads after char gen that will give them opportunities to earn more character points in play versus min/max math during char gen.

If you hit e23 right now, there are two series of PDF products; Dungeon Fantasy and Action! that provide much of this work already and a plethora of examples for the genre.

GURPS is as complex as you want to make it. Grab 4e GURPS lite (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004) and the free fantasy adventure from e23 (Caravan to Ein Arris (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-0031)). Give it another go. It really does play fast and you have plenty of optional rules to add later if you and your group want them. Also, they distilled GURPS into an Ultra Lite (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-0032) version as well. Gets you the real basics in 2 pages! :D

Why do you feel GURPS is complicated?

Skygalleons
11-02-2009, 09:14 AM
As I said in my first post, I can admire your conviction while completely disagreeing with your opinion. I tried for the better part of ten years to get into GURPS and simply could not make it happen. I have drawn a line and I will not sink any more money into a system I just don't like. Except in the case of as a reference for a setting that I am using a different system, there will be no more GURPS for me.

The reason I find GURPS too complex is that it has too many rules. There are rules for everything and if not yet, the next book will have them. You mention how you can trim the rules to suit. I'd rather start with a rules lite system like d6 or Cortex and add to suit. However, that is just me. When it comes to GURPS our opinions will always be diametrically opposed, so this is where we will have to agree to disagree.

Richard Littles
11-02-2009, 09:20 AM
It is good that you're going with a system that you like. I wish you luck and leave you with a bit of advice. For the first couple of gaming sessions with new groups talk with the players about what kind of characters they would like to play and create the characters for them. This way they're not inundated with all the options that GURPS has for character creation. Spend the first part of the session explaining the basic mechanics like stats and dice rolls then start the adventure. During the game a lot of players will have no problems with the system and may even like the options/control they have over their characters in comparison to their current system of choice.

In my playtest campaign only one player has experience with the Hero System. I asked each of the players to write up a short description of their character's personality then sat with them one on one to create their characters. The process took maybe an hour for each character and after the first session all of the players were going, "Wow Hero makes my character seem to be flesh and blood like they're a real person. You can't get this kind of detail in X system."

michaelsbagley
11-02-2009, 01:28 PM
I have always liked the GURPS system, but had a difficult time finding players of a similar mind. I tend to prefer to play over GMing, but I can be just as happy doing one as the other...

I'm a lazy GM though, and while GURPS has a ton of great "setting" books, I have always found the thing GURPS seems to be the most lax in, is catering to the lazy GM. There just aren't enough "adventures" out there to buy and use. While I may be a lazy GM, I do try to tweak adventure modules, and include ongoing story hooks... So I tend to want/need a good body of modules to choose from, and so far GURPS either doesn't seem to have that, or it just isn't obvious enough.

I think one of the things GURPS could do to compete with the other systems is to release more adventure modules as some of the bigger competitors systems. In reading some of the lengthy posts above, there was mention of a source for GURPS adventures, but that facet seems to have gotten lost to me when I read through the rest of the discussion and tried to go back and find it.

Richard Littles
11-02-2009, 02:29 PM
I have always liked the GURPS system, but had a difficult time finding players of a similar mind. I tend to prefer to play over GMing, but I can be just as happy doing one as the other...

I'm a lazy GM though, and while GURPS has a ton of great "setting" books, I have always found the thing GURPS seems to be the most lax in, is catering to the lazy GM. There just aren't enough "adventures" out there to buy and use. While I may be a lazy GM, I do try to tweak adventure modules, and include ongoing story hooks... So I tend to want/need a good body of modules to choose from, and so far GURPS either doesn't seem to have that, or it just isn't obvious enough.

I think one of the things GURPS could do to compete with the other systems is to release more adventure modules as some of the bigger competitors systems. In reading some of the lengthy posts above, there was mention of a source for GURPS adventures, but that facet seems to have gotten lost to me when I read through the rest of the discussion and tried to go back and find it.

GURPS has some of the best setting books while Hero has the best genre books. One of my favorite books for GURPS is the one that has all the prewritten character disadvantages. Adventure books really don't sell well which is why most companies aren't dedicating resources into producing adventure books. The order of profitability in rpgs from highest to lowest: Core Rules, Settings, and Adventures.

For example, GURPS will make the most money from their core rules because they're needed to play their game. Settings really cut down on preparation time due to the write ups for characters and important NPCs plus all the equipment is done for the GM strapped for time. Adventures don't make a lot of money because GMs typically eschew the one size fits all approach that adventures take. Until adventure writers are willing to put forth the effort to include multiple approaches to a single adventure there isn't much of a demand. The only company that did eschew the one size fits all approach is no longer in business, but their adventures were a work of beauty since they accounted for various approaches that groups use.

MortonStromgal
11-05-2009, 03:19 PM
It would never work for me or my group as most of us

A. Hate all point based character creation
B. Templates are not flexible enough

oWOD and MRQ are examples of character creations we like. Some template mixed with point buy. I also personally hate rolling damage and to hit. Shadowrun and nWOD are examples of combat resolution I enjoy.

Harwel
11-06-2009, 05:22 PM
It would never work for me or my group as most of us

A. Hate all point based character creation
B. Templates are not flexible enough

oWOD and MRQ are examples of character creations we like. Some template mixed with point buy.

You do know that GURPS 4e has this, yes? And it was easily done in 3e as well.

Anyway, I think GURPS is a great system and I think its complexity is overstated. It's unfortunate that a lot of gamers seem to break out in hives at the mere mention of the word GURPS. It's awesome for groups that can remember that rules are made to be broken.

MortonStromgal
11-06-2009, 10:42 PM
Has what? Last I checked GURPS doesn't let you pick primary and secondary attributes. Or pick I want to be an Order of Hermes and then spend your points where you like with guidelines. Thats not to say you couldn't build it that way but the Templates are either too strict or too loose there is no set templates cost 25pts then add what you like. So you end up with characters all over the place if you just use templates or they end up with a bunch of points left to spend. It also irritates me personally the templates have pre set attributes. Minimums I could understand but that all cops start with dex 12 bothers me. You can of course add points or remove from the template but then why not build it from scratch at that point. Character creation just isnt eligant. I can't take a new player and have them pop out a character in 15 min or less.

The 3d6 roll under works great. Theres plenty of things GURPS does right (chainmail!) but it just wont work with my group unless I want to spend more time building templates than running adventures. I'm currently running Shadowrun 3e and its a real stretch with the resource management for them. They are used to just taking resources 3 and call it done. I actually simplified it by saying if a peice of equipement is less than 1/100th the cost of your lifestyle you can just have it.

cliff
11-19-2009, 12:03 AM
I actually enjoy designing vehicles, though I do admit that I use the Vehicle Builder to do it. Kind of like a little game of it's own.

Webhead
11-19-2009, 01:12 AM
I too will join Skygalleons in applauding your focus and dedication to a game you love even though we stand on nearly opposite ends of the spectrum.

I owned GURPS for a short time and read it only to realize that it wasn't the sort of game design philosophy that I look for.

Sort of like Skygalleons said, in *very* brief terms, the older I get and more RPG systems I encounter, the more I realize that what I want sides with simplicity. Something that relies more heavily upon judgement calls and application of relativistic common sense than specifically detailed rules formulas. Wushu (especially Wushu Open Reloaded) represents something that fairly closely approaches more my style of rules. In fact, it creates an almost antithetical scenario when compared to most modern RPG systems in that the narrative intensity dictates the game mechanics rather than the other way around. It's not a perfect game (if anyone has found the "perfect" game, please let me know) but it has shown me that awesome things are possible when one is willing to distance oneself from more traditional archetypes and attempt to view things from entirely unconventional points of view.

But still, I admire you for the fact that you've pierced the haze of distraction and apathy and pursue your passions boldly and unapologetically. I personally know what it feels like to want to pursue an interest with such dogged determination and how that intensity of desire can be the beginning of life-changing experiences. Whether GURPS or d20, Palladium or D6, ORE, Savage Worlds, Unisystem, HERO, Risus or otherwise, we all share one thing in common: we love our games! :D

fmitchell
11-19-2009, 02:10 AM
Has what? Last I checked GURPS doesn't let you pick primary and secondary attributes. Or pick I want to be an Order of Hermes and then spend your points where you like with guidelines.

GURPS 4e does allow you to adjust secondary attributes (Will, Speed, Move, etc.) based on the primary stats (ST, DX, IQ, HT).

I'm not sure how what you described differs from templates. Templates are just packages of advantages, disadvantages (when it makes sense), skills, and average stats. If you want to be in "Order of Hermes", the GM sets up a template for the Order of Hermes, as well as guidelines for what to spend points in (e.g. no Computers/TL 11). Templates allow GMs to customize their world, and players to build characters quickly without drinking from the firehose of options.

That said, if you *do* have your own world, and SJ Games or some fan site doesn't have a supplement that might help, making your own templates can be daunting. I'm daunted, at least. I'd love to give GURPS a spin if only for nostalgia's sake, but a serious campaign would need at least as many templates as characters, if not two or three times as many. I'd probably give the players GURPS Lite and a list of approved advantages, disadvantages, and skills from the main book, plus some basic templates. (I'd also have to forbid one or two advantages in GURPS Lite, like Jumper ...)

3d6 roll under is one of the things I'm not so much a fan of anymore; roll-over makes math at the table simpler.

As for resource management, you could simply use a character's level in the Wealth advantage instead of tracking dollars and cents (or silvers and coppers).

I agree that simpler systems like PDQ, FATE, Wushu, and Risus end up being more malleable, but I have a soft spot in my withered black heart for GURPS the way others fondly remember D&D (whatever version they started with).

trechriron
11-19-2009, 04:27 AM
Prep is not one of GURPS strong suits. It really has a toolkit approach. However, the various supplements do have piles of ready to go templates. Also series like Action and Dungeon Fantasy go even further. e23 is your friend! Lots of awesome stuff there for a GURPS 4e GM looking to fast-track a game.

If you start a campaign with a campaign sheet, take the time to outline restricted ads/disads, skills, powers, spells, et al, and create some templates you will have a focused base to start your game. It will speed up character creation and net you characters that fit your vision for the game you want to play.

One quibble. Roll under is just as easy match wise (IMHO). All penalties and bonuses affect the skill (target number) to create your effective skill rating for that challenge. Once you have that number, you simply try and roll under it. It's "self limiting" that way. In games with add up, roll over, you can start dealing with some high numbers and multiples of numbers so I feel the time to add is a wash. Also, being able to call out "I failed by 3, or I succeeded by 6" is nice. You can interact with the players without giving away any GM secrets. :D

MortonStromgal
11-19-2009, 11:29 AM
GURPS 4e does allow you to adjust secondary attributes (Will, Speed, Move, etc.) based on the primary stats (ST, DX, IQ, HT).


That is not what I mean. I mean that I dont get 7/5/3 and pick I want 7 to go on my physical stats. This limits me, which I like, while still allowing for some flexibility.



I'm not sure how what you described differs from templates. Templates are just packages of advantages, disadvantages (when it makes sense), skills, and average stats. If you want to be in "Order of Hermes", the GM sets up a template for the Order of Hermes, as well as guidelines for what to spend points in (e.g. no Computers/TL 11). Templates allow GMs to customize their world, and players to build characters quickly without drinking from the firehose of options.


So I thought about how to answer this for a good long time. What don't I like about the templates because it would appear they would be perfect on a choice vs options scale. And my answer is its not that they couldn't work its that they are not designed the way I want them. What I want is a book of say 25pt template, 50 character types then another book of the same 50 character types with 50pts, then 100pts and so on and so forth. To me that would be very useful.


Prep is not one of GURPS strong suits. It really has a toolkit approach. However, the various supplements do have piles of ready to go templates. Also series like Action and Dungeon Fantasy go even further. e23 is your friend! Lots of awesome stuff there for a GURPS 4e GM looking to fast-track a game.


Honestly these resources are pretty good but they are not targeting me. Dungeon Fantasy for example is wonderful if I want to play level 5-7 D&D characters. I really wanted the level 1 character templates though. I think though they will get a whole lot more sales off what they did however :)

fmitchell
11-19-2009, 12:11 PM
That is not what I mean. I mean that I dont get 7/5/3 and pick I want 7 to go on my physical stats. This limits me, which I like, while still allowing for some flexibility.

That's a mechanism for a completely different game. (World of Darkness?) If you like it, go with that game. There are even easier ones, e.g. PDQ where you allocate points among freeform "qualities", e.g. "Order of Hermes: Good", and you're done. (Assuming everyone agrees on the definition and limitations of the Order of Hermes.)

I agree that making your own templates is a pain; unless every one of your gamers is a GURPS expert, that's the price of using the system.

Harwel
11-20-2009, 03:37 PM
3d6 roll under is one of the things I'm not so much a fan of anymore; roll-over makes math at the table simpler.

I disagree. Roll-under systems remove a mathematical step more often than not.

Compare:

"I need to roll a 25 or better, my effective skill is 15, I rolled an 8, 15 + 8 = 23, I fail."

"My effective skill is 15, I need to roll under that. I rolled a 17, I fail."

Roll-over systems have an advantage in that it's possible to have more levels of success (especially if you have exploding dice or dice pools or whatnot), but they're definitely not simpler math.

fmitchell
11-20-2009, 05:11 PM
I disagree. Roll-under systems remove a mathematical step more often than not.

Compare:

"I need to roll a 25 or better, my effective skill is 15, I rolled an 8, 15 + 8 = 23, I fail."

"My effective skill is 15, I need to roll under that. I rolled a 17, I fail."


You're skipping over the step of calculating "effective skill". In roll-under systems, you add and subtract and add and subtract modifiers based on conditions. In a typical roll-over system, you have a base bonus, maybe a pre-calculated effective bonus, with environmental factors, against a "difficulty factor" which at worst the GM calculates on-the-fly based on circumstances. Mathematically, it's the same, but cognitively it's a little easier to add than subtract at the table ... and you can calculate many bonuses and difficulties ahead of time.

Harwel
11-25-2009, 10:37 AM
You're skipping over the step of calculating "effective skill". In roll-under systems, you add and subtract and add and subtract modifiers based on conditions. In a typical roll-over system, you have a base bonus, maybe a pre-calculated effective bonus, with environmental factors, against a "difficulty factor" which at worst the GM calculates on-the-fly based on circumstances. Mathematically, it's the same, but cognitively it's a little easier to add than subtract at the table ... and you can calculate many bonuses and difficulties ahead of time.

I don't agree with that either. A lot of roll-overs have a fixed target number and all modifiers are added or subtracted from effective skill. Either that, or the you're adding or subtracting modifiers from the target number. They are, in essence, the same in terms of calculating effective skill. Whether your adding or subtracting depends entirely on whether you're assessing higher or lower difficulty to a given task.

michael
11-28-2009, 12:09 PM
I guess I am the exact opposite when it comes to wanting to be involved with GURPS. I tried literally for years with my absolute favorite settings to get interested in GURPS, but I could not. The system is just too bloody complex. While not as bad as anything from the defunct FGU, who were at least honest enough to say "The system is complex because life is complex," GURPS manages to make even the simplest thing a week long event. Character creation or even worse, ship design are brutal. I can't speak for the math majors out there, but if your system involves cube roots, it is too complicated!

In addition to the needless, one could even say mindless, complexity, my major problem with anything designed by SJGames is the company's insistence on one second long combat rounds. As an experienced marksman, with more years in the Army than I care to remember, a GURPS character can do more in one second than any human can possibly do.

However, on the other hand, the extremely detailed nature of GURPS has one very strong plus. If you need a resource book, you simply can not beat a GURPS book. If I am running a setting and there is a GURPS book for that setting, I will snap it up as the GURPS book, even though it will never be used as the game being played, as I know it will cover the setting I am running better than anything short of a doctoral thesis on the topic.

I guess it is gamers like yourself that keep GURPS afloat as somebody must like the complexity to keep the system alive after so long. Many far easier, and in my opinion fun, systems have had their parent company fold up over the years, so who is to say which view point is right. Good on ya for sticking to your system of choice. I can admire a gamer of conviction even if I completely disagree with their opinion.

I appreciate your viewpoint, but would like to show you a slightly different perspective.

GURPS basic set, pg. 8 "Quick Start", second paragraph, last sentence states: "And all the detail is optional - use it only when it makes the game more fun."

Every rule in GURPS is modular. The game is designed to be played at any complexity level, so if you feel it is too complex, then you might want to play a simpler version of it. It was designed specifically to meet the needs of people who want a simple game (or a complex game).

On a side note does anyone know how long sjgames.com has been down or why?

fmitchell
11-28-2009, 01:04 PM
A lot of roll-overs have a fixed target number and all modifiers are added or subtracted from effective skill.

I'll give you that, but I find adding bonuses in single digits easier than subtracting points from a number in the typical 1-20 range (or, worse, percentiles). YMMV.

John Kim makes another persuasive argument for roll-over vs. roll-under (or roll-and-add as he calls it):



These are mathematically equivalent, but there are psychological differences. In "roll-under" systems, the stat is expressed as a chance of success. This makes it faster in the case of difficulty zero, but it creates a bias which encourages difficulty zero. The GM sets the difficulty of a roll in relation to the standard zero difficulty (i.e. "this is a harder task than normal: -3" or "this is an easier task than normal: +2"). However, for many rolls a standard is difficult to define. For example, a percentile system might have a character who has 25% Cryptography skill. At a simplistic level, this seems easy to understand: she has a 25% chance to crack a code. But what is a standard code-cracking?

In "roll-and-add" systems, the difficulties are rated on the same number scale as the skills. Having skill equal to difficulty tends to mean either 100% chance or 50% chance. Thus, instead of setting difficulties relative to a standard, the GM tends to set difficulties relative to skill (i.e. "this would be 50-50 for a starting professional").

Richard Littles
11-28-2009, 09:33 PM
I'll give you that, but I find adding bonuses in single digits easier than subtracting points from a number in the typical 1-20 range (or, worse, percentiles). YMMV.

John Kim makes another persuasive argument for roll-over vs. roll-under (http://roll-over%20vs.%20roll-under) (or roll-and-add as he calls it):

The problem with using Mr. Kim is that he refers only to a linear dice progression in both of his examples which doesn't apply to GURPS or Hero System or any other bell curve system. With the roll under system employed by GURPS/Hero the standard difficulty of a task is what the skill is rated in like Cryptography 13 or less. This means that a character is very skilled in what they can do since the average skill task is 11 or less and they have an 83.8% chance of succeeding at moderately difficult tasks. Modifiers applied to the roll make a very big impact since each +1 or -1 reflects a change of 5% minimum up to 12% maximum change in the percentages of succeeding the task. A roll over system could work with a bell curve system, so ultimately it's a matter of preference.

Skunkape
11-30-2009, 09:26 AM
On a side note does anyone know how long sjgames.com has been down or why?

Just went to sjgames and it loaded for me. Not sure whether you've checked since your post or not.

trechriron
01-31-2010, 05:33 PM
I lied. Still can't find enough players. :( :o Also, I am burned out on crunch. :rolleyes: :o

I am going to be running a sci-fi game here soon with another system BUT I plan on mining Ultra Tech, Bio-Tech, and Space for ideas! Planet creation in Space is awesome.

So, I love GURPS. I just can't play GURPS. But I can USE GURPS so our relationship is still a go, just more one-sided these days. :biggrin:

MortonStromgal
01-31-2010, 10:19 PM
So, I love GURPS. I just can't play GURPS. But I can USE GURPS so our relationship is still a go, just more one-sided these days. :biggrin:

LOL so you show up drunk and take advantage of GURPS good will! Then she doesn't hear from you for weeks.

Webhead
02-01-2010, 10:04 PM
That's a testament to the amount of time and effort that Steve Jackson Games and their writers put into GURPS...even if you don't like or use the system, many of their sourcebooks are great treasure troves of ideas. I have the Old West sourcebook to supplement my Deadlands games, the Swashbucklers sourcebook for Pirates of the Spanish Main, etc.

trechriron
02-02-2010, 02:25 PM
LOL so you show up drunk and take advantage of GURPS good will! Then she doesn't hear from you for weeks.

yes, but I buy her books! I mean, it's not all crass and emotionless. :D


That's a testament to the amount of time and effort that Steve Jackson Games and their writers put into GURPS...even if you don't like or use the system, many of their sourcebooks are great treasure troves of ideas. I have the Old West sourcebook to supplement my Deadlands games, the Swashbucklers sourcebook for Pirates of the Spanish Main, etc.

Exactly! Looking at some more Spaceships goodness this week with the release of Spaceships 7!

malchya
05-30-2010, 11:16 AM
Okay, so my new (used) copy of GURPS 3e just arrived....This will be the 7th or 8th copy of GURPS I've owned. And I can't really explain why. I purchased Man to Man when it came out and thought "Swordbearer type combat made more complex and without the flexibility of the percentile system" and put it on the shelf. Ended up giving it to a player when I, for whatever reason, picked up GURPS 2e. I think my old group spent most of an afternoon doing characters then decided we would rather go back to AD&D 1e. When GURPS 3e came out, I picked it up (OCD, I guess....). This one I actually ran a Japan campaign with for a few months. Then my group wanted to go back to AD&D 1e. Seems to have been a trend.

Anyway, I moved to Alaska, left my old group behind, had the boat I was living aboard pop a through hull and flood, destroying a 15 year collection of games and notes for games....Sigh. So I started over and GURPS 3e was the second or third game re purchased. I didn't run it for years, however. Then enter the single best role player with whom it has ever been my pleasure to game. She took to GURPS character generation like a duck to water. Her previous experience had been almost entirely AD&D 2e and she found the lack of limitations in GURPS astounding. We played Japan, straight fantasy, Cliff Hangers, Swash Bucklers and a little sci fi. Then I introduced her to AD&D 1e during a record snowfall and GURPS kind of fell by the wayside.

One divorce and a move to the Ozarks later and I, once again, have to start my RPG collection over. First came Privateers and Gentlemen. Then FASA Star Trek. Traveller. Sword Bearer. Warhammer FRP. Gang Busters (Actually never lost that one! My daughter had it). Pendragon. GURPS 3e....again. And so, a stranger in a strange land (the Ozarks are rather strange following 20 years in Alaska) I am a game master in search of players. And though I would be willing to run any of the games previously listed, my first choice would be for GURPS: Horseclans.... At least until I pick up a copy of AD&D 1e.

Omegaman
06-20-2010, 11:22 PM
It's funny. With the exception of the "roll over vs roll under" which I don't really see as that different, every item that people list for why they don't like GURPS are SPECIFICALLY items that I call out to others when they ask me why I like it. I love being able to have a game that is super simple without a bunch of complex rules. Most of the time. But at times when I want to get all detailed on a specific front, I don't have to go and invent and eyeball if I don't want. It's all done. I just tell the players, we're using these rules and that's it.

I ignore a lot of GURPS rules because my gamers are almost always D&D and they don't do well with the "well that crossbow can kill you in one shot" kind of things. So our GURPS combats look a lot more like D&D. But I know that when they are ready or it fits the particular game etc., the rules are there for me. I LOVE THAT.

But then, I view the game as my servant, I am not a slave to the book. My favorite phrase is, "No, you can't have that just because it's in the book". I think that "because it is printed in the book, it must be available" is ridiculous. That's why you have a Game Master who guides the game. You take the game and use the rules you want to get the kind of game you like to play, and all the rules that don't support that type of play,........ YOU IGNORE THEM! It's awesome. I just love that GURPS doesn't step on my toes and say "You HAVE to use these rules or it ruins the whole system." I LOVE modular.

And I really love being able to play a Bard that can kick butt with a rapier. My two cents.

Verminous Countenance
07-09-2010, 09:32 PM
To me, the best thing about GURPS is the character creation, always has been, always will be. In fact, my group and I will gladly tell you that Character Creation is our favorite game and GURPS our favorite type of it. Pick a world or a source book, delineate a few no-no's for your world, a few suggested archetypes, a sampling of useful/neccessary skills and viola! you're off and playing. Well, unless it's character creation in SUPERS heh. The only system more complicated that GURPS Supers is Champions in the old days. And really, I wouldn't even call either one complicated, just incredibly robust and open. But I LIKE THAT! Knowing that I can design a character that does exactly what I want, with full, unique, descriptions of said powers and thier limitations or enhancements, well, to me that's worth spending a week doing.

And like any game I've played in the last 30 years of my adult gaming life, there is a learning curve to any system, but GURPS does have the capability to let you ramp it up as you learn. Heck yeah the breadth of books is daunting, but all you need is the core book, or even just Gurps light. In fact one of the best products that SJS has brought out in recent years is the 4e GMs screen, which includes GURPS Light and a handy book of all the character creation rules plus many forms useful to the GM. I always tell new players that all they need to play the game is that one 20 dollar expenditure and I can flesh out the rest. This way they have all the basic rules, all the charts and tables and a great crib sheet for character creation. It's an indespensible teaching tool for me. Plus it's not so great an expenditure for a player to make if they're willing to give my game a try. If they like it, well, that's when I introduce them to the library of GURPS books.


I know I've played probably 100 different systems over the years. I used to work at a Game and Hobby shop for 10 years, so maybe I've been exposed to more than most, but again and again, regardless of how cool a new system or its game world is, I always end up returning to GURPS and the freedom it gives me. A well structured freedom that can be as simple or as rigorous as I wish it to be. I then dump the ideas garnered from that hot new game into my campaigns. True, it might take me a bit of tinkering to realize that world in the GURPS framework, but to me, a world is just a bigger, more complex character and I just loves me some character creation.

Sweeper
04-20-2012, 09:59 AM
I've been a big fan of GURPS for years ever since I discovered G:3E back in the early 90s. These days, it is one my 3 goto systems for gaming, (the other two being Hero and Savage Worlds). One of neatest tricks for GURPS I was ever introduced to was, "Take any 3 GURPS books and you can make a game out of it." That's something you can still do with humungous library of books for the system.

One thing I have learned about GURPS, (and Hero when it comes down to it), is that it does require a bit more prep work than a dedicated system like Pathfinder or Eclipse Phase. Not much more, though. The GM just needs to define what rules are to be used such as combat, (Will it be the combat lite, detailed skirmish set or something in between? Cinematic to Realistically Deadly?), skills, (detailed skill set or Wildcard skills?) and starting points, (50 pts to 500 pts)*.

The Players need a solid character concept based on the GM's world before cracking open the books. The best characters I've seen are the ones who's player have and ultimate goal in mind. This allows character growth in-game, which makes for a more satisfying experience than having all the goodies up front (possibly a reason why I'm not big on most Supers games).

Basically, the hard part of GURPS comes from the up-front stuff before the game starts, and that even isn't that hard when you know what you have in mind.

My 50 cents

* I have played awesome 50-point GURPS games. One of the more interesting ones was playing a character in hiding in Nazi-Occupied Warsaw. It's all about prespective. :)

Descronan
04-20-2012, 11:59 AM
As a game designer there are some things about GURPS that made me twitch. I haven't played it in years, but I know the basic success mechanic is the same as always. Rather than rolling dice and adding for a total, you roll under a stat. This led to a very narrow ceiling on what was practical for attribute and skill advancement. Once a score got to 16, it really didn't matter as the odds of rolling a 17-18 on 3d6 is pretty much nill.

This is also due to the bell shaped curve and the non-linear progression that 3d6 creates. This curve created a lack of granularity and a fairly drastic decrease in risk as scores improved made for very little incentive to continuously improve.

On the contrary, the d20 system can always have someone that is bigger, badder, or better because of its linear progression and d20 + Skill mechanic.

Now I know that GURPS has ways to address this issue. But its not as simple or intuitive as the d20 system. Ironically had they inverted their success system and made it 3d6 + Stat I would probably have played it more.

The other thing that I saw was the slooooow combat and relatively low drama from the system. A good GM can compensate for this effectively, but Combat seemed very monotonous, slow, and tedious. Maybe there have been improvements to the system since I played that made combat more exciting (and I haven't played 4th ed). In fact, it seemed to reinforce the "I attack" response more so than creative description, which was also limited by the 1 second round.

Lastly, there is the appearance of complexity from the size of the book. The GURPS 4th edition book is HUGE! And frankly I don't have that much time to read through all those rules. Sure I don't need to. Only certain sections really need a good read to get started, but the illusion of complexity is there. Picking up an encyclopedia takes less effort than lifting the GURPS books LOL

These days when I consider a new game system I try to figure out how many pages that I need to read to build a character - not counting equipment or spells. If it is more than about 50 pages then I put the game down. Because GURPS has so many advantages, disadvantages, and quirks, it looks huge. That's a lot of options to filter through. Too many for a beginner. So this may be a factor for its declining popularity.

If d20 did anything right it was splitting out the player books from the GM books.

Sweeper
04-20-2012, 12:41 PM
They did separate the Players book from the GMs book. They tossed out the idea of a single book for those very reasons you just sited.

Ceo_Druidechta
04-24-2012, 01:28 AM
I was reading through this thread, and thought I’d respond to a few bits that caught my eye.


I guess I am the exact opposite when it comes to wanting to be involved with GURPS. I tried literally for years with my absolute favorite settings to get interested in GURPS, but I could not. The system is just too bloody complex. While not as bad as anything from the defunct FGU, who were at least honest enough to say "The system is complex because life is complex," GURPS manages to make even the simplest thing a week long event. Character creation or even worse, ship design are brutal. I can't speak for the math majors out there, but if your system involves cube roots, it is too complicated!

First, for those who don’t know, “cube roots” refers to the Vehicles sourcebook for the third edition of GURPS, published in the ‘90s. It used cube roots in some calculations. The third edition rules were discontinued nearly a decade ago, so they don’t have much relevance for GURPS as it exists today. Using an out-of-print sourcebook from an obsolete edition of the game as an example of what’s wrong with the system is quite a stretch.

EDIT: Though I don't have a copy to refer to, I believe the cube roots rule in the 3e Vehicles sourcebook was explicitly optional as well. Making it even less relevant.

RE-EDIT: I finally scrounged up a copy of GURPS Vehicles for 3e to check. Cube roots were in fact used to calculate the performance of watercraft. But a table of cube root values was included, so you never actually had to take the cube root of anything. The only math you had to do was multiplication and division.

There is no 4e Vehicles sourcebook per se, but there is a very user-friendly series on spaceships. There is also an article in Pyramid magazine which converts the Spaceships rules into a general-purpose vehicle design system.
http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-2634

About character creation, if you don’t like building from scratch, why not use the Templates? The Basic Set has Templates for fighters, sneaky/brainy types, and mages. They work for settings from ancient times through the future, and take minutes to use. The genre and setting sourcebooks have additional templates as well, if the ones in the Basic Set don’t fit.

About overall complexity, GURPS Lite is 32 pages long. It has everything you need for a campaign – character creation, weapons, combat, skill use, experience, etc. Everything else in the Basic Set is optional detail. That’s not my idea of complex.
http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004


In addition to the needless, one could even say mindless, complexity, my major problem with anything designed by SJGames is the company's insistence on one second long combat rounds. As an experienced marksman, with more years in the Army than I care to remember, a GURPS character can do more in one second than any human can possibly do.

The one second round works about as well as any game abstraction can be hoped to. GURPSists have done a lot of research, and debated ad nauseam on the SJG forums about cases where it doesn’t fit reality. It has held up well overall, and the few genuinely problematic situations mostly involve melee combat, not guns.

GURPS is meant to accommodate the full range of human ability. And military personnel typically don’t come close to the upper limit of human potential. In fact, The High Tech sourcebook had to introduce options that expand what a gunman can do in a round, because some people have proven that they can move faster than is possible by Basic Set rules.

The default flavor of GURPS is what the designers call “heroic realism”. The game emulates the more down-to-earth end of the action/adventure spectrum. Characters are relatively believable, but surpass the limitations of ordinary people at times. Getting true gritty realism requires limiting options in character creation, using some optional rules, and maybe using a few house rules as well.

---------- Post added at 02:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 AM ----------


As a game designer there are some things about GURPS that made me twitch. I haven't played it in years, but I know the basic success mechanic is the same as always. Rather than rolling dice and adding for a total, you roll under a stat. This led to a very narrow ceiling on what was practical for attribute and skill advancement. Once a score got to 16, it really didn't matter as the odds of rolling a 17-18 on 3d6 is pretty much nill.

This is also due to the bell shaped curve and the non-linear progression that 3d6 creates. This curve created a lack of granularity and a fairly drastic decrease in risk as scores improved made for very little incentive to continuously improve.

On the contrary, the d20 system can always have someone that is bigger, badder, or better because of its linear progression and d20 + Skill mechanic.

Now I know that GURPS has ways to address this issue. But its not as simple or intuitive as the d20 system. Ironically had they inverted their success system and made it 3d6 + Stat I would probably have played it more.

It’s true, “the basic success mechanic is the same as always”. And, as always, you often have to roll at serious penalties. Your 16 skill will sometimes be reduced to 12, or 8, or even less, due to poor light, Afflictions, Speed/Range penalties, etc. And you can voluntarily take penalties to get enhanced results. All things being equal, a skill 20 swordsman is much more effective than a skill 16 swordsman, because he can negate his opponent’s defenses with Feints, Deceptive Attacks, and Rapid Strikes, target gaps in armor, incapacitate opponents with strikes to vital areas, etc. And sometimes you have to win contests of skill, which means not only making your roll, but making it by more points than your opponent.

I don't get how you could play the game and miss this stuff.

In a fantasy setting, it is simple to give a bad guy extremely high skill, plus enchanted gear, so he is basically unbeatable in a duel except by an opponent of awesome skill. In a modern day campaign, extreme skill with a rifle may be needed to take out a terrorist from a rooftop at night. The same goes for non-combat skills; a typical surgeon won’t be able to save a critically injured alien’s life using improvised tools, for instance.

The GURPS approach to challenging highly-skilled characters is to give them greater challenges, and to apply skill penalties commensurate to the challenges. That's “simple” and “intuitive” enough for me.


The other thing that I saw was the slooooow combat and relatively low drama from the system. A good GM can compensate for this effectively, but Combat seemed very monotonous, slow, and tedious. Maybe there have been improvements to the system since I played that made combat more exciting (and I haven't played 4th ed). In fact, it seemed to reinforce the "I attack" response more so than creative description, which was also limited by the 1 second round.

That hasn't been my experience. I use GURPS for my Call of Cthulhu games, in part because of the quick, brutal fights, and the disquieting level of detail in the system. I also like it for fantasy, though in that case I change the options a bit. I go for less speed and a more tactical feel, since I like combat to play a bigger role in a fantasy game. The system also generates drama in combat, due in part to the realistic effects of injury. When a PC falls to the ground with a leg wound, a routine combat suddenly turns tense, because (s)he is in actual danger. The defense penalties for reeling from the pain of the wound, and lying on the ground, mean a normally capable fighter could be run through and killed unless help arrives fast. I like the sudden suspenseful turns combat can take.

I also find the system encourages more than simple attacks. Depending on the situation, feints and deceptive attacks may be needed to keep the enemy from blocking, or grappling and pinning may be more effective than striking. And since attacks to hit locations have realistic effects, players are encouraged to go for a punch to the jaw, a slash to the arm, or a thrust to the armpit behind the breastplate.

As a GM, I find that the range of options in combat helps me tailor the actions of NPCs to the needs of the storyline. If the combat needs to be drawn out, the bad guys fight defensively. If I want to create a feeling of shock and horror, the bad guys fight all-out, sacrificing defense to inflict as much damage as quickly as possible. And I can add color to the fights like in any game, interjecting some dialog or stopping to describe an action in detail.

There have been some improvements to the combat rules in 4e, but nothing major. The general flow of combat should be about the same. I find that (as any GURPS player will tell you), when combat is monotonous, the problem is usually operator error.


Lastly, there is the appearance of complexity from the size of the book. The GURPS 4th edition book is HUGE! And frankly I don't have that much time to read through all those rules. Sure I don't need to. Only certain sections really need a good read to get started, but the illusion of complexity is there. Picking up an encyclopedia takes less effort than lifting the GURPS books LOL

These days when I consider a new game system I try to figure out how many pages that I need to read to build a character - not counting equipment or spells. If it is more than about 50 pages then I put the game down. Because GURPS has so many advantages, disadvantages, and quirks, it looks huge. That's a lot of options to filter through. Too many for a beginner. So this may be a factor for its declining popularity.

I'm repeating part of my last post, but GURPS Lite (the free introductory rulebook) is just 32 pages. And it has everything you need to run a campaign – character creation, combat, experience, weapons, etc. The rest of the rules are just optional detail.
http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004

And Basic Set: Characters has Templates to help you make a character in minutes. You can start out with that, then learn about the rest at your own pace. It’s big because it’s not just one game – it’s like an RPG Lego kit, from which you can build lots of different games.

What is your source for the claim that GURPS is declining in popularity? Of course, the market for tabletop RPGs seems to be shrinking, so the long-term trend is for all of them to decline. But as far as I am aware, GURPS is holding onto its share of the market.

Descronan
04-24-2012, 10:02 AM
I don't get how you could play the game and miss this stuff.


It was a VERY long time ago. And according to my son, I'm old... LOL

Ceo_Druidechta
04-24-2012, 05:34 PM
It was a VERY long time ago. And according to my son, I'm old... LOL

To be fair, I find that a lot of gamers start with a new RPG only knowing bits and pieces of the core rules. GURPS is probably less forgiving of that than a lot of systems.

Jeffrywith1e
05-21-2012, 07:57 AM
I was reading through this thread, and thought I’d respond to a few bits that caught my eye.I just want to say... that was a great post.