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trechriron
09-30-2009, 05:11 PM
Also adding a poll to gather broader ideas.

What tropes and ideas are you tired of seeing in a fantasy setting? Or perhaps you're not tired of them at all?

What kinds of things would you like to see in a fantasy setting?

I appreciate your opinions!

RULES: Please don't suggest another system or setting that fits any of the wants here. I really want to see what people here WANT as I am doing research for my own possible work.

Thanks!

tesral
10-01-2009, 12:56 AM
All of them.

That said, don't stop. Because something is tired does not mean it cannot be presented in a fresh new way. It is said that there are five plots in the world. It is not the plot you use, but how you present it and the characters that makes the story.

Yes, every trope has been used and reused, that is why they are tropes. However, that doesn't mean they cannot be used again, they are tropes.

traesin
10-01-2009, 03:28 AM
I agree. I like the same old thing, but with a twist or presented in a new way.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-01-2009, 09:22 AM
Bringing in something new, a twist, whatever, so as to set it apart from other fantasy games is all you need. I do this with my games and it works great.

lomifeh
10-01-2009, 10:20 AM
There is the train of thought that nothing in fiction is new. Really at this point it is how you make it your own with whatever angle you use.

fmitchell
10-01-2009, 11:50 AM
Every fictional setting, and every scenario, will incorporate familiar tropes. However, I think mainstream FRPGs have been in thrall to Tolkien far too long. At the very least, introduce different tropes, such as Conanesque Swords & Sorcery, different cultural bases, different approaches to magic (as opposed to the standard point & chant), etc.

(Yes, there are games that do one or more of these, but far too few.)

Thorn
10-01-2009, 12:40 PM
That has always been there.

Sascha
10-01-2009, 12:57 PM
Every fictional setting, and every scenario, will incorporate familiar tropes. However, I think mainstream FRPGs have been in thrall to Tolkien far too long. At the very least, introduce different tropes, such as Conanesque Swords & Sorcery, different cultural bases, different approaches to magic (as opposed to the standard point & chant), etc.

(Yes, there are games that do one or more of these, but far too few.)
This. Somewhat ironic, given Gary Gygax's sentiments towards Tolkien's work, though, heh.

Personally, I'd like to see "Good v. Evil" and/or "quasi-medieval Europe" go by the wayside. Or subverted. A lot. (A fantasy western would be to die for~ Desperadoes & Dragons, anyone?)

yukonhorror
10-01-2009, 01:20 PM
i like the idea of modernism mixed with fantasy. Or instead of arthurian/medieval dated setting, go with ancient egypt or native american tribe cultures.

The tropes (never heard the term, but I think I got the gist of what it is) I hold firm to are character archetypes. The warrior, the magician, the healer, etc...

fmitchell
10-01-2009, 03:56 PM
To those not familiar with the idea of tropes, get thee to TV Tropes (http://www.tvtropes.org), which covers far more than TV.

If I were to list the main subversions of tropes I prefer to play with, I'd include the following:

Cultures instead of "races" Swashbucklers of the 7 Skies does a good job of this. As with aliens in SF, I'm a firm believer that if your "race" is simply humans with a cultural quirk, just make them human. A while back (maybe on the old board) I explored how to do stock fantasy races as human cultures. If I can't find it, I might rewrite it.

Traditional magic instead of point-and-chant "spells" I've ranted about this before. As examples, check out John Kim's essays on Magic in Roleplaying (http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/magic/) and the way magic works in Pendragon (except 4th edition), Issaries' HeroQuest, Mage, and Call of Cthulhu. I'm a big fan of magic as elaborate hours-long ritual, as many real-world traditions define it.

No always evil (or always good) races/cultures/countries In real life, no group of people has a monopoly on heroes or villains. An entire country or species of psychopaths simply isn't viable, and a country of saints stretches belief. As a corollary, I'm sick of "ugly/dark = bad, pretty/light = good". To combat the trend, I attempted to run a campaign where the heroes were civilized orcs (sort of), and humans were both antagonists and helpers.

I also wish I did more with non-European cultures, but I'm not as well versed in their history. I do try to play with religions and power structures, e.g. a monotheist theocracy blending elements of the Abrahamic religions.

yukonhorror
10-01-2009, 04:02 PM
To those not familiar with the idea of tropes, get thee to TV Tropes (http://www.tvtropes.org), which covers far more than TV.

If I were to list the main subversions of tropes I prefer to play with, I'd include the following:

Cultures instead of "races" Swashbucklers of the 7 Skies does a good job of this. As with aliens in SF, I'm a firm believer that if your "race" is simply humans with a cultural quirk, just make them human. A while back (maybe on the old board) I explored how to do stock fantasy races as human cultures. If I can't find it, I might rewrite it.

Traditional magic instead of point-and-chant "spells" I've ranted about this before. As examples, check out John Kim's essays on Magic in Roleplaying (http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/magic/) and the way magic works in Pendragon (except 4th edition), Issaries' HeroQuest, Mage, and Call of Cthulhu. I'm a big fan of magic as elaborate hours-long ritual, as many real-world traditions define it.

No always evil (or always good) races/cultures/countries In real life, no group of people has a monopoly on heroes or villains. An entire country or species of psychopaths simply isn't viable, and a country of saints stretches belief. As a corollary, I'm sick of "ugly/dark = bad, pretty/light = good". To combat the trend, I attempted to run a campaign where the heroes were civilized orcs (sort of), and humans were both antagonists and helpers.

I also wish I did more with non-European cultures, but I'm not as well versed in their history. I do try to play with religions and power structures, e.g. a monotheist theocracy blending elements of the Abrahamic religions.

with regards to the race/culture statement. I feel like I have played in a system where they did just that. Like celtic tribes were hardier, but less well-mannered resulting in a bonus to Constitution (or whatever the game's equivalent was) and a penalty to charisma. I wish I could remember what game it was.

As for your alignment statement, I agree.

tesral
10-01-2009, 04:20 PM
trope

 http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/T05/T0527300) /troʊp/ http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled Pronunciation [trohp] http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA ,Use trope in a Sentence (http://ask.reference.com/web?q=Use+trope+in+a+Sentence&qsrc=2892&o=101993)

See web results for trope (http://ask.reference.com/web?q=trope&o=100049)

See images of trope (http://ask.reference.com/pictures?q=trope&o=100049)

–noun 1. Rhetoric. a. any literary or rhetorical device, as metaphor, metonymy, synecdoche, and irony, that consists in the use of words in other than their literal sense. b. an instance of this. Compare figure of speech (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=figure+of+speech&db=luna). 2. a phrase, sentence, or verse formerly interpolated in a liturgical text to amplify or embellish. 3. (in the philosophy of Santayana) the principle of organization according to which matter moves to form an object during the various stages of its existence.

Origin:
1525–35; < L tropus figure in rhetoric < Gk trópos turn, turning, turn or figure of speech, akin to trépein to turnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png

WARNING!!! -- The Following link will eat your brain, suck your time away and likely cause swine flu, -- WARNING!!!

Also TV Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage) is a good explanation by example.

Sascha
10-01-2009, 05:43 PM
... Like celtic tribes were hardier, but less well-mannered resulting in a bonus to Constitution (or whatever the game's equivalent was) and a penalty to charisma.
I'm not sure this is a good model, either, despite the long-standing gaming tradition. The base criterion for the Charisma-type penalty - mannerisms - is wholly bound to a specific culture, and rather variable *within* that same culture, as well, if we're going for a realistic view. Might be better to treat the nuances of cross-cultural interactions as a situational modifier, rather than base stat adjustments.

If they're even important, that is, which could very well not be the case. Not all systems track things equally.

(Of course, that could just be the anthropologist in me. Biological determinism and its ilk are, in short, some of the more controversial theories in the discipline, heh.)

Hoitash
10-01-2009, 06:05 PM
I made my DnD campaign different by including technological progression. A dwarven kingdom has this loud noisy ranged weapon called a Holy Iron of Moradin (is that how you spell their diety?) that shoots a lead ball by igniting flashpowder in a barrel.

It's a musket, in other words. I intent to give one to a player.

tesral
10-01-2009, 09:04 PM
I'm not sure this is a good model, either, despite the long-standing gaming tradition. The base criterion for the Charisma-type penalty - mannerisms - is wholly bound to a specific culture, and rather variable *within* that same culture, as well, if we're going for a realistic view. Might be better to treat the nuances of cross-cultural interactions as a situational modifier, rather than base stat adjustments.

If they're even important, that is, which could very well not be the case. Not all systems track things equally.

(Of course, that could just be the anthropologist in me. Biological determinism and its ilk are, in short, some of the more controversial theories in the discipline, heh.)

I do have to agree however. I dislike modifiers to base states based on culture. A situational modifier at best.

fmitchell
10-02-2009, 04:09 AM
I'm not sure this is a good model, either, despite the long-standing gaming tradition. The base criterion for the Charisma-type penalty - mannerisms - is wholly bound to a specific culture, and rather variable *within* that same culture, as well, if we're going for a realistic view. Might be better to treat the nuances of cross-cultural interactions as a situational modifier, rather than base stat adjustments.

Thirded. At best, I'd give skill bonuses, e.g. +2 Survival in a desert to Bedouins, or +2 Streetwise to a city rat.

Iron Heroes had a system called Traits(?), to customize characters. Some of these were Backgrounds (where and to what station you were born), which gave a situational skill bonus. Others concerned notable physical or mental characteristics, which enhanced characteristics or provided other benefits (e.g. Short, which makes the character Small but shifts points from Str to another stat).

cigamnogard
10-02-2009, 08:16 PM
I'd like to see a Napleonic setting myself.

tesral
10-02-2009, 10:29 PM
Flame and Sword back in the 80s.

XeroDrift
10-05-2009, 09:52 AM
(A fantasy western would be to die for~ Desperadoes & Dragons, anyone?)
Lol Sascha

But anyway, am I the only Palladium fan out there, a game system where just about anything is possible?

Take Rifts for example,

Desperadoes & Dragons? Doable (easily, there are books with a western theme for fodder, plenty of dragons in other books too).
Space Vampires? If you like.
Superpowered Ninjas? Sure.
Baby Wars? Strange, but possible.
A futuristic army battling a horde of demons or magical goblins? Why not?
You prefer pure fantasy in the vein of D&D? Covered.
Intergalactic warfare? Done.
A psychological mind bender teeming with horrific imagery and fear? Got it.

If you can imagine it, you can do it. You can even easily adapt and integrate your favorite things from other game systems, you like Drow, bring 'em over, you love lightsabers and the Force, work it in if you want. You don't want to bother with imagining something unique? No problem, the worlds they have already created are myriad and fascinating.
I love the Palladium Multiverse of games, I can only wonder at its seeming lack of popularity.

tesral
10-05-2009, 11:42 AM
Rifts has its own problems. I have a good deal of it in the shelf here. Great idea, I'm disappointed in the execution and system.

It would however be simplicity itself to mashup with d20. There are enough d20 products with a high degree of interoperability between them. My own idea was D&D for the melee weapons and magic, Star Wars (Second edition) for the high tech. Take from D20 Modren for well, modren gear. I would toss in my own psionic system for extra flavor and actual mental powers. You could find a D&D, Star Wars, or Modren class to cover anything. The system works well within itself.

Part of the problem with Rifts is the lack of consideration for any degree of game balance. Every source book ramps up the power from the last source book.


http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com/SS_Modeler/RPG/rifts-bra.jpg

yukonhorror
10-05-2009, 11:47 AM
Lol Sascha

But anyway, am I the only Palladium fan out there, a game system where just about anything is possible?

Take Rifts for example,

Desperadoes & Dragons? Doable (easily, there are books with a western theme for fodder, plenty of dragons in other books too).
Space Vampires? If you like.
Superpowered Ninjas? Sure.
Baby Wars? Strange, but possible.
A futuristic army battling a horde of demons or magical goblins? Why not?
You prefer pure fantasy in the vein of D&D? Covered.
Intergalactic warfare? Done.
A psychological mind bender teeming with horrific imagery and fear? Got it.

If you can imagine it, you can do it. You can even easily adapt and integrate your favorite things from other game systems, you like Drow, bring 'em over, you love lightsabers and the Force, work it in if you want. You don't want to bother with imagining something unique? No problem, the worlds they have already created are myriad and fascinating.
I love the Palladium Multiverse of games, I can only wonder at its seeming lack of popularity.

I like palladium, but the games never got anywhere past character creation. Never did rifts though, just ninjas and superspies and heroes unlimited.

Sascha
10-05-2009, 12:30 PM
I love the Palladium Multiverse of games, I can only wonder at its seeming lack of popularity.
If it weren't for the rules, I'd still be playing Palladium's games. They still occupy nearly a whole shelf of my bookcase, but danged if I'd want to inflict the system on any group :P (Not when there are other rules that work sooooo much better for my style, like FATE, heh. Though, I have been itching for a gonzo TMNT & Other Strangeness game ...)

But enough deviation from discussing fantasy tropes ;)

lomifeh
10-05-2009, 04:06 PM
What I've been dying for is a good steampunk version of shadowrun in essence. Bring in the fantasy races, have the various tribal and other cultures mixed in and go. I might start working on something. I think it could be pretty neat. Ideas, suggestions?

Hoitash
10-05-2009, 04:14 PM
My game's gonna have steam powered tanks. My dwarves have bombs and flintlock muskets, and my gnomes make the tanks. And flamethrowers. Helpful?

And ironclads, you gotta have ironclads. Anything that can take out a Martian tripod is a must have for any sci-fi/fantasy setting.

lomifeh
10-05-2009, 09:09 PM
My game's gonna have steam powered tanks. My dwarves have bombs and flintlock muskets, and my gnomes make the tanks. And flamethrowers. Helpful?

And ironclads, you gotta have ironclads. Anything that can take out a Martian tripod is a must have for any sci-fi/fantasy setting.


Airships!

Hoitash
10-05-2009, 09:14 PM
D'Oh! Thanks for reminding me.

Uh, can gases be mined?

tesral
10-05-2009, 09:54 PM
D'Oh! Thanks for reminding me.

Uh, can gases be mined?

I suppose that is what they do to get them. Get raw materials, process them for the desire gas.

BTW: Thunderchild would have been an Iron ship, not an ironclad. Something like this, HMS Victorious 1894

http://www.cityofart.net/bship/hms_victorious.jpg

Hoitash
10-05-2009, 10:19 PM
Ahem: Thunder Child. Two words. (puts nitpick hat away.)

And in the book it's called an ironclad, but it has been interpreted in different ways depending on the author. The musical depicts it pretty much like the picture, but I was thinking more ironclad like, like the Virginia (Merrimac.)

XeroDrift
10-06-2009, 10:24 AM
Uh, can gases be mined?

It can be, but you are looking at natural gas (like methane) that can be used as a fuel source, any weaponized gas (nerve agents, mustard gas, etc...) is the product of science (chemistry).
--- Merged from Double Post ---


Part of the problem with Rifts is the lack of consideration for any degree of game balance. Every source book ramps up the power from the last source book.




True, thats my major complaint with Rifts as well, however, its easy enough to apply a few slight modifications to create a sense continuity.
--- Merged from Double Post ---

If it weren't for the rules, I'd still be playing Palladium's games. They still occupy nearly a whole shelf of my bookcase, but danged if I'd want to inflict the system on any group :P

Good point, it takes some getting used to. Once familiar however, the breadth of the skill system and the intricacy of the combat mechanics offer a depth to the gaming experience I've not found in other systems. As much as I like other games, many are a bit too straight forward and simplistic for my taste.
--- Merged from Double Post ---

I like palladium, but the games never got anywhere past character creation. Never did rifts though, just ninjas and superspies and heroes unlimited.

Rifts alone has 30 world books that describe the situation on earth in great detail, 18 source books of various specificities, 10 dimension books with descriptions of otherworldly realms and an infinite possibility for homebrewed worlds, 5 reference books, and 8 adventure books. Most are quite large, almost all over 200 pages, some over 300, all are teeming with a wealth of information and potential, and each with only a small portion dedicated to character races and classes.

Lol, I think I've beat this horse as much as a can...

tesral
10-06-2009, 09:14 PM
Lol, I think I've beat this horse as much as a can...

:deadhorse:

BTW the little doohicky next to the "Quote" button is called "multiquote" Click it for each post you wish to include in your reply and then hit "Post Reply" You will get separate quote blocks for each post in the order you clicked on them.

Valdar
10-07-2009, 01:05 AM
Curiously, if you pick up a book like "xx Year's best fantasy short stories", more than half of them will be set in the modern day, and the protagonists won't have prior experience with magic and such. Yet, games with this sort of setting are comparatively rare... I would think that normal people encountering the supernatural would be a fairly un-tapped genre that would be ripe for exploiting...

trechriron
10-07-2009, 02:14 AM
Curiously, if you pick up a book like "xx Year's best fantasy short stories", more than half of them will be set in the modern day, and the protagonists won't have prior experience with magic and such. Yet, games with this sort of setting are comparatively rare... I would think that normal people encountering the supernatural would be a fairly un-tapped genre that would be ripe for exploiting...

That IS an interesting thought...

Especially taking say traditional fantasy classes and not changing them but justifying the builds to apply to the modern day.

"She used to be my secretary. Now she's fighting the scourge of the otherworld with her sorcery powers. She was a damn fine secretary too."

Thalaba
10-07-2009, 09:30 AM
I love fantasy settings, and when I see a new one in the store I browse through it. If I see any of the following I immediately put it back on the shelf: Elves, dwarves, orcs, halflings (or facsimiles of any of these), evil/good as a classification system, ubiquitous magic and (especially) magic items, plate armour with flanges and ribs all over it, or jumbo swords with flame-like patterned blades. These have been done to death as far as I'm concerned and I can no longer suspend my disbelief well enough to play or run them.

I would probably also put it down if it looked like Pirates of the Caribbean, Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk, Arcanum (steampunk), or any other popular setting.

What might really interest me was something reminiscent of ancient greece, the middle east, Persia, India, central america, the Himalayas or Shan Shan, Bali, or the american southwest - but wasn't too obviously any of those things. I want something that is fantasy, but realistic enough to feel like it's historical. I can only think of one published fantasy setting that's excited me in the last 10 years, and that was Artesia: The Known World.

As far as I'm concerned, if you can reproduce the qualities of that in a new a fresh setting, you're golden.

Thalaba

XeroDrift
10-07-2009, 11:26 AM
Curiously, if you pick up a book like "xx Year's best fantasy short stories", more than half of them will be set in the modern day, and the protagonists won't have prior experience with magic and such. Yet, games with this sort of setting are comparatively rare... I would think that normal people encountering the supernatural would be a fairly un-tapped genre that would be ripe for exploiting...

Check out "Beyond the Supernatural" by Palladium Books

"The supernatural is real. Psychic abilities and the paranormal are real. Magic is real. Yet science and authority figures dismiss them as hysteria, hoaxes, and madness. However, special individuals gifted with special abilities or cursed with firsthand encounters find themselves inexorably linked to the paranormal and forced to deal with the consequences."

Locien
08-20-2010, 11:03 PM
Things I hate seeing:
Midevalism-there's a lot of history that's full of myths, and nearly all of it is nonmideval, Borrow from other time peroids.
Using only european myths-there's an entire world filled with people to steal ideas from, pick up a book of myths or two. This leads to
Equivalence fantasy world-basically take our world, change the map a little, add magic, and rename everything. Unless the world is somehow linked to the mundane earth, this just seems stupid and lazy.
Noble elves-elves shouldn't be nobles, I like them more wild, more fey in the original sense of the word. They shouldn't either be completly unconcisable, at where you've simply made them into demons and you fail at setting creation again.

On a related note, things that I hate people hating are elves and alignment systems-I find the explanations as to why to be annoying. Also low power games fail to appeal to me at all.

tesral
08-20-2010, 11:35 PM
We checked the alignment of your car, it's chaotic evil.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
08-21-2010, 12:29 AM
I hate people hating gnomes.

Sascha
08-21-2010, 12:42 AM
I don't see what lawn ornaments have to do with fantasy ...

Dytrrnikl
08-21-2010, 01:50 AM
I game as much for fun as for having a way to escape from the day to day grind of normal everyday life. That being said, any game that attempts to emulate the ambiguous, jaded, cynical moral outlook of real-life is to be avoided when associated with fantasy, at least for me. <steps down from soap box after realizing no one is listening>...

I'd like to see more free form magic systems, allowing true freedom and flexibility for magic. The Dresden Files novels does a great job of having that sort of set-up, with magic being very specific to the individual caster - being dependent upon the casters own force of will to shape it as needed and desired.

fmitchell
08-21-2010, 10:29 AM
I'd like to see more free form magic systems, allowing true freedom and flexibility for magic. The Dresden Files novels does a great job of having that sort of set-up, with magic being very specific to the individual caster - being dependent upon the casters own force of will to shape it as needed and desired.

You do know there's a Dresden Files RPG, right? I haven't read through through it yet, but it's based on FATE. From a quick skim, wizards use a few skills to achieve any effect they can imagine and the GM will allow.


On a related note, things that I hate people hating are elves and alignment systems-I find the explanations as to why to be annoying.

Well, I hate people hating hate for elves and alignment systems, so there.

The further one can get away from Tolkien, the better, in my mind. If you absolutely need elves, do something atypical: a castle-building civilization (e.g. Melnibone), unusual biology (e.g. Glorantha's humanoid plants), folkloric inspiration (e.g. Moorcock's Corum series, Pratchett's Lords and Ladies, Pendragon's treatment, or Changeling: the Lost), or something just odd (e.g. the Shadow Elves of Basic D&D's Gazetteer series, or Keebler elves). Bog standard Wood Elves and High Elves just bore me.

Arguments about alignment have raged elsewhere, and have continued to do so. I will say I prefer the Allegiance system presented in Elric! and generalized in Basic Roleplaying: each Allegiance is a percentile score. Actions in line with an Allegiance's ethos and beliefs increase its percentage score. While not recommended in BRP, supplements like Dragon Lines decrease allegiance scores for transgressions against a particular religion or philosophy, e.g. the Celestial Bureaucracy hates any form of disrespect, particularly toward itself. The percentage represents the likelihood of receiving supernatural aid from that power; if allegiance reaches 100%, the associated power grants the characters special abilities.


I hate people hating gnomes.

Gnomes never really found their niche. Small dwarves? Master illusionists? Weird tinkers? More fey than elves? On the other hand, I could see a world where dwarves, halflings, and perhaps even elves don't exist, with gnomes taking their places. In The Chronicles of Prydain, for example, non-Tolkien dwarfs rule the Tylwyth Teg (faerie court), and feature prominently in the series. In Hellboy, most of the fairy people resemble gnomes (minus the peaked hats) more than elves.

Scribe of the Realm
08-21-2010, 12:24 PM
The escape I seek from an RPG to create a setting that is a stage for heroic acts. As always, I think in terms of plots. In this case, I think about how the setting will support the stories you want to tell and how the players will build upon those stories. If you have very cleaver players who excel at finding novel paths to justice, your tropes can be very rooted in stereotypes. The classic example of this is the old TV series Have Gun Will Travel. Paladin, Richard Boone's character, was a gunfighter who used his own moral compass to find a more just solution than to simply gun down all the bad guys.

My own tastes are to start with the tropes. The players, key NPCs, and major plot points are all recognizable for their deviation from conventional stereotypical expectations. This isn't because the game world is sprinkled with arbitrary actions, but that conspicuous acts are performed by those having goals and aspirations that are grander or broader than those held by the run of the mill tropes. Superman's secret identity is a simplistic example, but it is appropriate to a particular setting. More to my liking is The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (gravitates towards cynicism and irony) and Samurai Jack (focuses on inner growth). When I really want to bust up a stereotype, I draw on Python, The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin, The Nightmare Before Christmas, The Princess Bride, Ella Enchanted, Red Dwarf, and Yes Minister.

Your setting will be populated with people and beings that have long standing habits that bring a conventional level of success within their own cultures. These are the stereotypes of your setting, even if they are wildly different from the basic tropes of the genre on which they're based.

You will create stories within this world view which will both challenge and support these stereotypes. Just as an aside, these stories wind up with labels like backstory, history, mythology, cosmology, origins, politics, adventure paths, etc. You and your players will settle on ways to navigate and add to these stories (one-offs, adventures, modules, etc.). In order to make your world appealing, craft your stereotypes to support the types of interactions that you and your players favor. Your choice of rules and game mechanics (especially House Rules) will either support or detract from the key interactions that give your world its appeal. Hack and slash rules don't easily lend themselves to plots that are heavy on social interactions oriented toward inner moral development.

Choose the rule system wisely. The last time I got together with my old gaming friends, none of us could remember the Dr. Who game mechanics. On the fly, we just converted the skill test mechanics to Twilight 2000, and everyone was happy. Both sets of rules are oriented towards individual actions (whether combat or social). If our sci-fi scenario had been heavy on vehicular combat, the game would have bogged down. Stereotypes and game mechanics go hand in hand with particular actions (combat, negotiation, surveillance, spying, grappling, magic, etc.) that drive your plots. Decide which rules simulate necessary detail (adding flavor to the world) and which provide necessary simplifications (avoiding trivia that distracts from the game or disrupts its flow).

Locien
08-22-2010, 01:58 AM
The further one can get away from Tolkien, the better, in my mind. If you absolutely need elves, do something atypical: a castle-building civilization (e.g. Melnibone), unusual biology (e.g. Glorantha's humanoid plants), folkloric inspiration (e.g. Moorcock's Corum series, Pratchett's Lords and Ladies, Pendragon's treatment, or Changeling: the Lost), or something just odd (e.g. the Shadow Elves of Basic D&D's Gazetteer series, or Keebler elves). Bog standard Wood Elves and High Elves just bore me.
To be honest I don't like your Tolkien rip-offs either, though your more "out there" versions annoy me. I like thinking of elves as more "wild and capacious spirits and gods of nature" from your earlier pre-modern religions(modern being your "one god" sort of religions in our world)-that gives them enough bite to not be bland, and lacks any sort of post-modern "Oh look at me I'm being transgressive" BS flavor. That's why I liked it when in DnD 4e wizards rolled the Eladrin into the elves and made them all fey and more random in behavior-and in all honesty, your more powerful fey should be random.

Elf King: "I desire the worst sandwich in all the land!"
PCs: "What?"
Elf King: "If you want my assistance, then you will find me that sandwich. And you can't make it your selves, or ask anyone about it. I'll know."
PCs: "@#$%!"

Or a few could decide to attack the PCs because of some insane reason like he likes their shoes. In sort, make they insane(or just weird. They don't all have to be trouble, just strange). That's what I think the Celts thought of the gods and spirits of their land, and it seems like a good idea to me. I actually want to try playing a fairly normal(in human terms) Eladrin that grew up away from any other fey in human lands, and when he first meet another fey, he thought that they wear insane. Then the DM would have a hook in that someone from the feywild would be interested in my character, and want him for something, but he wants nothing to do with them. Well, I think that sounds fun at least.

Dytrrnikl
08-22-2010, 09:21 PM
You do know there's a Dresden Files RPG, right? I haven't read through through it yet, but it's based on FATE. From a quick skim, wizards use a few skills to achieve any effect they can imagine and the GM will allow.

I have a copy of the game. Though it was very nicely put together, and I admire the skills based-descriptive format of FATE, I'm not a fan of the system. As a player and GM I have issues with any system that has mechanics that support 'trumping' the GMs rulings...Star Wars saga and the cursed Destiny mechanic.


The further one can get away from Tolkien, the better, in my mind.
I disagree, but then I'm a rabid Tolkien fan. Like him or hate him, his work played a very influential role in the development of fantasy gaming.


If you absolutely need elves, do something atypical: a castle-building civilization (e.g. Melnibone), unusual biology (e.g. Glorantha's humanoid plants), folkloric inspiration (e.g. Moorcock's Corum series, Pratchett's Lords and Ladies, Pendragon's treatment, or Changeling: the Lost), or something just odd (e.g. the Shadow Elves of Basic D&D's Gazetteer series, or Keebler elves). Bog standard Wood Elves and High Elves just bore me.
Or just have them closer to real world mythos...Drow are pretty close, sans the spider fetish.

Sascha
08-23-2010, 01:28 AM
I have a copy of the game. Though it was very nicely put together, and I admire the skills based-descriptive format of FATE, I'm not a fan of the system. As a player and GM I have issues with any system that has mechanics that support 'trumping' the GMs rulings...Star Wars saga and the cursed Destiny mechanic.
It's certainly not a system for everybody. Still, I'm not sure what you mean by "'trumping' the GM's rulings." Are you talking about the fate point economy?

tesral
08-23-2010, 02:22 AM
Elves. Yes, I made an effort to get away from the just like Tolkien, or just like Celtic myth, or just like anyone.

Elves in Thindacarulle (http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php/6695-Elves-in-Thindacarulle)

Hoitash
08-23-2010, 08:29 AM
I made mine Centauri for my book.

I wanted a British analog to go with my French and German ones. Stop looking at me like that, I was bored.

Dytrrnikl
08-24-2010, 07:20 AM
It's certainly not a system for everybody. Still, I'm not sure what you mean by "'trumping' the GM's rulings." Are you talking about the fate point economy?

Ok, maybe trumping was not the best word to use. I despise, as a player and GM, any in-game mechanic that gives the player additional influence to outcomes in-game...basically anything that lessens the chance of failing in game. Once you make a choice or take a course of action, there's only so much you are able to control and guide, after that it's hoping for the best. The FATE point economy is definately on the crap list for me, as well as the cursed Destiny mechanic of Star Wars Saga.

WARNING: TANGENT....I'm very old school in my approach to gaming, in that the PCs are not heroes right out of the gate...they're just every day folk getting pulled into events larger than themselves or they've decided to risk there lives doing something incredibly dangerous for, hopefully, a nice reward. They don't become heroes until they've paid there dues and really gained a name for themselves...the old name-level deal, that occurs right around 8th or 9th level in level-based systems, or when a PC has a handful of skills in a skill-based system that enable them to succeed better than 60% of the time.

Sascha
08-24-2010, 09:58 AM
Ok, maybe trumping was not the best word to use. I despise, as a player and GM, any in-game mechanic that gives the player additional influence to outcomes in-game...basically anything that lessens the chance of failing in game. Once you make a choice or take a course of action, there's only so much you are able to control and guide, after that it's hoping for the best. The FATE point economy is definately on the crap list for me, as well as the cursed Destiny mechanic of Star Wars Saga.
Sorta. The fate point economy's less about "not losing," and more "this is important to the players." One of the central designs of FATE is that all players at the table should have a say in the narrative, beyond the 'traditional' GM/player power structure; the GM is considered one of the players, albeit one with a specialized role. You can see the design philosophy much better in the acquisition of consequences - the player decides when to take consequences, and what form those consequences take, not the GM. FATE's really a collaborative game, in the best sense of the word, and like I mentioned, it's not everybody's play style.


WARNING: TANGENT....I'm very old school in my approach to gaming, in that the PCs are not heroes right out of the gate...they're just every day folk getting pulled into events larger than themselves or they've decided to risk there lives doing something incredibly dangerous for, hopefully, a nice reward. They don't become heroes until they've paid there dues and really gained a name for themselves...the old name-level deal, that occurs right around 8th or 9th level in level-based systems, or when a PC has a handful of skills in a skill-based system that enable them to succeed better than 60% of the time.
Fair enough. I'm just trying to clarify what I perceive as misconceptions, which means you'll probably like it even less ;) For what it's worth, I completely agree that heroes are made, not born; I just don't think it has anything to do with power levels or player agency. (And anything less than an ~85%-success rate is far too random for my tastes :P)

Dytrrnikl
08-24-2010, 10:26 AM
Sorta. The fate point economy's less about "not losing," and more "this is important to the players." One of the central designs of FATE is that all players at the table should have a say in the narrative, beyond the 'traditional' GM/player power structure; the GM is considered one of the players, albeit one with a specialized role. You can see the design philosophy much better in the acquisition of consequences - the player decides when to take consequences, and what form those consequences take, not the GM. FATE's really a collaborative game, in the best sense of the word, and like I mentioned, it's not everybody's play style.

I actually picked up the Dresden RPG to give FATE a try, based upon the fact that it is a system designed to get away from GM/player power struggle. I even went so far as to download the free FATE rules. It's just me having a hang up with GM being a player with a specialized role.



Fair enough. I'm just trying to clarify what I perceive as misconceptions, which means you'll probably like it even less ;) For what it's worth, I completely agree that heroes are made, not born; I just don't think it has anything to do with power levels or player agency. (And anything less than an ~85%-success rate is far too random for my tastes :P)
It's not often I talk to people that agree with heroes being made, not born line of thinking. I get a lot of flack from the gamers in my own group, because of that. I've got a group of 7 regular players, that have gamed together so long, it's like I have the A-Team for players, where no matter what i send at'em they find a way to succeed...combat or non-combat. Funny, as frustrated as I've gotten over the years playing a variety of RPGs and video games when things didn't go my way, I would've thought that I'd enjoy the player friendly format that is starting to become prevalent in games...of course I've always been the type of person that has felt if there wasn't a challenge or not much of one, why bother. Give me something with 1 in 4 or worse chance of success and I'm already reveling in the struggle to succeed before I start.

tesral
08-24-2010, 11:12 AM
There has to be a challenge or it just is not fun. But like you have have players that are good. They find a way to do the job. Result, when I GM for someone else I have to either water down the scenario or crank the character level.

Sascha
08-24-2010, 11:36 AM
I actually picked up the Dresden RPG to give FATE a try, based upon the fact that it is a system designed to get away from GM/player power struggle. I even went so far as to download the free FATE rules. It's just me having a hang up with GM being a player with a specialized role.
That kind of diversity is what makes the hobby awesome, imo ;)


It's not often I talk to people that agree with heroes being made, not born line of thinking. I get a lot of flack from the gamers in my own group, because of that. I've got a group of 7 regular players, that have gamed together so long, it's like I have the A-Team for players, where no matter what i send at'em they find a way to succeed...combat or non-combat. Funny, as frustrated as I've gotten over the years playing a variety of RPGs and video games when things didn't go my way, I would've thought that I'd enjoy the player friendly format that is starting to become prevalent in games...of course I've always been the type of person that has felt if there wasn't a challenge or not much of one, why bother. Give me something with 1 in 4 or worse chance of success and I'm already reveling in the struggle to succeed before I start.
And I've always been the type of player for whom the challenge wasn't important. I play to crack wise. Sometimes it's even in-character :P Having rules that don't take my character out of the game due to statistical outlier rolls is gravy (gravy that I vastly prefer over the alternative, but gravy, none the less).

tesral
08-25-2010, 09:57 AM
We have kind of wandered off topic a bit. New Fantasy settings. Lets turn it on it's head. Rather than what you consider tired and old, what would you really want to keep?

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
08-25-2010, 10:01 AM
Underdark

tesral
08-25-2010, 10:08 AM
What exactly about the underdark?

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
08-25-2010, 10:15 AM
I love its potential for DM's and players, alike.

fmitchell
08-25-2010, 11:07 AM
The idea of the Underdark is great, particularly for a game with roots in dungeon delving. It's essentially an continent-spanning dungeon plunging to unknown depths. However, I'm not too sure about some of the denizens:

The Drow: A society of sociopaths -- Drizz'l fo Shizzle notwithstanding -- stretches belief, even with an insane demon goddess propping them up. Oh, and their skins are black, because they're evil elves. Ugh. The Shadow Elves, from the Gazeteer #11, make much more sense: pale-skinned (like every other subterranean creature), survival-oriented to the point of (apparent) callousness, and devoted to their god whom they believe saved them from the End of the World. Details of their origins tie back to Glantri, Blackmoor, and other books, but with a bit of tweaking they could fit in any campaign.

The Food Chain: Yes, the Underdark is full of nasty creatures that will eat your brain, your flesh, your soul, and your liver with fava beans and a nice chianti. Between adventurers, though, what else do they eat? And what do those creatures eat? In the real world, herbivores and plants comprise most of the Earth's biomass. Apparently, though, nothing sustains the food chain in the sunless depths. I'm not even sure what Dwarves eat, and they walk on the surface occasionally. Hey! It's like a big dungeon, with monsters stocked in every room.

On the other hand, I love Mind Flayers(TM) despite my whining about food chains. I also like Derros, although maybe I'd use more of the "Shaver Mystery" mythos from which they derive. Aboleths and Myconids have possibilities, too.

Mostly, though, I like the idea of an alien, claustrophobic environment, which strains surface-dwellers' supplies and psyches. Days or weeks without sunlight, scarce food and water, dangers lurking at every turn, forms of life utterly unlike anything in their experience ... it's a Lovecraft fan's dream. It's the Mountains of Madness, K'n-Yan, and N'Kai all rolled up into one.

Webhead
08-25-2010, 10:29 PM
The Drow: A society of sociopaths -- Drizz'l fo Shizzle notwithstanding -- stretches belief, even with an insane demon goddess propping them up. Oh, and their skins are black, because they're evil elves. Ugh. The Shadow Elves, from the Gazeteer #11, make much more sense: pale-skinned (like every other subterranean creature), survival-oriented to the point of (apparent) callousness, and devoted to their god whom they believe saved them from the End of the World. Details of their origins tie back to Glantri, Blackmoor, and other books, but with a bit of tweaking they could fit in any campaign.

Aye. Next to the Shadow Elves, Drow were just a disappointment.

DM_Running_Farland_3.5
08-26-2010, 01:26 PM
I've toyed with the idea of creating archetypes in the races (and cultures) but also providing different options within the race. For example there might be some dwarves in this world. +2 Con, -2 Cha...sure. But you can choose to be a member of any number of non-standard clans and/or guilds that may have affected how much time you spend developing certain skills.
For argument's sake, we'll say that Con is inherent with most clans, so all except one clan (Clan SlightlyWeakerThanTheOtherClans) have a +2 Con. But the penalties can vary. Clan SmooshChaosInTheFace is a bit like the Tribe of Levi, they are the preistly ones. They need higher Charisma scores to combat evil more effectively, so they spend time being more diplomatic and friendly than other dwarves but miss out on the vigrous exercise most dwarven youths get, so they suffer a -2 Str. With a little imagination, you could think of some other clans that might offer different options. The differences in the clans are more for NPCs. If a PC wants to play a dwarf that isn't +2 Con, -2 Char, they don't have to be a member of the clan that offers them the bonus and penalties they want. But they should come up with a strong role-playing back story that carries into the game as to why they want it.

tesral
08-26-2010, 01:40 PM
Or have the player decide what the penalties score is. My character is not very bright, or my character is on the clumsy side. Fix the benifit, but float the weakness.

Conversely fix the penenity and float the benefit. Haltings take a -2 to str. What if the player wants a wise Halfling and not a deleterious one? Or wishes to run a wizard and take the benefit to intelligence?

I can see the benefit to such a system. I would even allow Humans a tit for tat exchange. Humans get to float the benefit and penalty. Or not take it at all. Running a Warlock? Take a strength hit to get charisma.

DM_Running_Farland_3.5
08-26-2010, 03:09 PM
I like the fix penalty or benefit and float the other idea. I think depending on the race, I would change it.
Maybe dragontreats (Halflings) get an automatic penalty to strength; grumpygruffs (dwarves) get an automatic bonus to constitution; pointyears (elves) have an automatic penalty to constitution (reflects why there aren't tons of elves...they aren't healthy enough to reproduce too often)...you get the idea.

Dytrrnikl
08-27-2010, 05:04 AM
The floating benefit/penalty idea is nice, the only thing I see is that it is making the demi races closer to human with greater diversity...not a bad thing, but then why play human? What I'd like to really see, is truly divergent races...psychology, emotion, anatomy (internal and external), and of course cultural. As an example, something I've been working for my own homebrew, is playing culture specific to race and why they have fixed benefit and penalty...due to a horrific event in my homebrew, halfings become a haunted people due to their overall inaction to help prevent the situation; now, they are not only a very driven people, but they've split themselves into (this was inspired by historical fact and how it was presented in modern age - Babylon 5) into three casts - one for all casters and manifestors (Clerics, Mages, Sorcerers, Psions of all make, Paladins, Rangers, Druids), one for all non-caster, non-manifester warriors (Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue), and a third which contained everyone else.

As for what I'd like to see kept, can't really speak for 4E, but for earlier editions and Pathfinder, keep standardized races, expand the list, but keep'em standardized. Being a fan of Tolkien, the less straying from what he gave the world, the better...at least for me.

Malruhn
08-31-2010, 05:58 PM
I'm in the process of EVER so slowly putting all my campaign twists on paper (e-paper, thank you very much!). I've wanted to make some quasi-changes, and have done so... Unless you are from a lower plane, you are not truly "evil", except in relation to how someone would describe you (that guy doesn't fit in with our faith's morals, so he is TEH EBIL!!! KILL HIM!!!!). In this, I've done the following:

Orcs: I've stuck to the antient (yes, the olde spelling!!) alignment and made them Lawful Evil as described in the original books (or at least how WE played them). For all functionality - they are Klingons. Might makes right and since I kicked your butt, I'm righter than you are. All hail ME!

Goblins: Standard Chinese military outlook... if you aren't in charge, you are a minion and will be treated as such. For battle, losses of minions don't count, so send the entire Fourteenth Division against the Castle of Impenetrability, the other 13 didn't work. Kill all you want, we'll breed more. Only the front rank gets weapons or armor... when the second rank gets there, they can pick up what they need from the bodies of the failures that preceded them.

Kobolds: Very Billy Jack... live and let live... don't fight unless we have to - and if we get attacked, ONE lost kobold is three too many so let's save our lives at nearly all costs. ALWAYS have an escape route and a backup plan.

Elves: Sooooo stand-offish that they are nearly xenophobes. They only get involved as a last resort, and that traitor in the Lord of the Rings needs to be put to death in a very gruesome manner.

This being said, my campaign world is very human-o-centric, and much of the scenario fodder is based on greed and insanity - much like the real world.

Tropes? Yeah, I have them, but I try to make them as common-sense as possible.

Riddlekin
12-09-2010, 04:46 AM
Explore new cultural models. Like say a better version of Maztica/Central America. More grittiness, less high fantasy. I'm a pulp fantasy fan myself for the most part; if I have medieval stock type campaigns then I like them to have violent wars, sinister magic and deadly intrigues.

More of a realistic approach to morality. Fewer assumptions that the characters will think and feel like we do.

malchya
12-12-2010, 01:18 PM
If I want to run a medieval European fantasy setting I'll pull out Pendragon or Warhammer, thank you very much. But I have to agree with those who would like to see non-European settings explored. The setting on which I am currently working is a bronze age humnocentric world with some major differences from most fantasy. No horses for one. Three different races of dwarves that bear little to no resemblance to Tolkien's, (I like dwarves, what can I say? And the idea of desert Bedouin religious fanatic dwarves just appealed to me...) and the sad, scattered remnant of dying whiney elves.....

fmitchell
12-13-2010, 12:05 AM
Lamentations of the Flame Princess: Weird Fantasy Role Playing has an interesting take on Elves and Dwarves: dying races waiting out the inevitable. Dwarves bury themselves in work, although the occasional adventuring type leaves mountain halls to find a life. Elves -- smug bastards as usual -- await the end with quiet dignity and grace.

If I ever run it, bugger that. In my version, the Elvish "lower classes" are devolving into savages, while their ruling class spend their lives in indolence and decadence, or play political games for no real stakes. (Kinda like Kindred.) My version of Halflings fill the niche of D&D kobolds: justifiably paranoid diggers of tunnels and riggers of traps. (No fat, bucolic burghers for me.) LotFP:WFRP recommends not using other humanoids, but I'm thinking of adding the "un-men", unseen objects of fear that live in the northwest. What they really are, I haven't decided.

As for cultures, a Russian basis might make a good compromise between familiarity and novelty. From what little reading I've done, it blends Slavic culture with Norse, Western European, Central Asian, and Byzantine influences. Mythic Russia, using the HeroQuest system, looks like an interesting reference, although I've only gotten halfway.

tesral
12-13-2010, 12:46 AM
We did have the one fellow with the swashbuckling Dwarf. That was fun.

Soft Serve
03-15-2011, 01:23 PM
Not sure how I feel about this one yet but for what it's worth this one seems to break the mold. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0409847/)

(May have broken the original posts rules there since Western & Sci-Fi isn't really fantasy genre speaking, but apples/oranges.)

Sascha
03-15-2011, 01:34 PM
Not sure how I feel about this one yet but for what it's worth this one seems to break the mold. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0409847/)

(May have broken the original posts rules there since Western & Sci-Fi isn't really fantasy genre speaking, but apples/oranges.)
Fantasy isn't strictly medievalist trappings, so there's the possibility of fantasy westerns. Like the JRPG series 'Wild ARMs.' The sci-fi part pulls it out of "fantasy," though.

(Also, I'm so looking forward to that film~ ^_^)

Soft Serve
03-20-2011, 03:21 PM
(Also, I'm so looking forward to that film~ ^_^)

I'm looking forward to Daniel Craig. Still don't know how I feel about the movie...

(edit) also Wild ARMS was fun. My dad beat it before me though...

nijineko
03-27-2011, 10:59 AM
it seems that what makes fantasy in the eyes of most are the existence of strange and different creatures usually from the myths and legends of our world, and miraculous events and abilities which are supported or explained by non-technological means.

then again sci-fi is mostly the same... the existence of creatures strange and different sometimes related to the myths of our world, sometimes not, and miraculous events and abilities which are supported or explained by technological or pseudo-technological means.

in essence, the props are different. sort of like the differences between western and samurai flicks. everything is interchangeable, just switch out the costumes, weapons, and setting architecture pretty much. ^^

tesral
03-28-2011, 12:29 AM
Someone said "there are five plots". So yes the same tropes keep turning up. Westerns and Samurai movies as you mention, sometimes literally. Seven Samurai became The Magnificent Seven. Sometimes modren war films become science fiction. The TOS Star Trek epsoide Balance of Terror was a licensed rewrite of The Enemy Below. Both work well.

It isn't so much the tale you tell, but how you tell the tale. Even old and tired tropes can be given a new shine. Friend of mine recently pointed out that I ran the Monty Python Dead Parrot sketch as a gaming scenario. Only it was the ghost they needed to lay that believed the bird was still alive, and the bird was the dead magician's familiar.. The funny thing is he was dead on right, and I never knew i was doing it. I had taken a ridiculous (and funny) comedy sketch and made it a tragic tale...and wasn't aware of it at the time.

I have also taken various tales and deliberately done that. Dragonslayer in my D&D game with Giants instead of the Dragon. Snow White and the Seven Dwarves as a Star trek game with the PC ship filling in for the Handsome Prince. They come across the wreck, find the girl and go from there. The magic mirror proved to be an ancient AI computer and so forth. File the serial number off well enough and the players don't realize what you have done.

nijineko
03-29-2011, 12:30 AM
among my favorite movies, thank you. (seven samurai)

tesral
03-29-2011, 07:26 AM
On my list of to be watched one day. I dislike subtitles however and don't speak Japanese.

Sascha
03-29-2011, 01:12 PM
Great film. (And the concept is reused, again~, in The Three Amigos!)

nijineko
03-31-2011, 11:53 PM
i've found most all of akira kurosawa's films to be worth watching, especially if toshiro mifune was in them. speaking japanese does not always help, especially when they break out the hyogen (regional dialect) or ben (slang), or get all classical japanese on one. i know, because i do speak japanese. i'm told i'm fluent, though i have my doubts. and since i've always read, i've never really minded subtitles. i can always rewind if i missed a classic pose or comical gesture. or the subtitle. ^^

tesral
04-01-2011, 10:18 AM
I've heard it said that Toshiro Mifune was the greatest actor in Japanese, and if he had spoken English he would have be the greatest actor, period. I also saw him in the US miniseries Shogun. They did a decent job of it (I read the book) He didn't need to speak any English in that.

nijineko
04-04-2011, 10:51 PM
he could do in five seconds of film what took other actors fifteen or more seconds to portray.

tesral
04-05-2011, 02:32 AM
I'll second that. He didn't need to speak. The words just confirmed what his face and actions told you.

tesral
05-06-2011, 01:06 AM
Has the subject run its course?

Utgardloki
05-10-2011, 12:09 AM
Perhaps the subject of tired tropes has become a tired trope. But any trope can be resurrected with the right approach.

I ought to resurrect my plans to write up a Lair of the Cliche Lord someday.

nijineko
05-23-2011, 02:50 PM
to accompany the evil overlord lists?

trechriron
06-21-2011, 02:34 AM
Has the subject run its course?

For us? Yes. For new people? One never knows. I have gathered an immense amount of useful information and for that I am truly thankful. Thanks people!

magic-rhyme
07-11-2011, 02:27 PM
I ought to resurrect my plans to write up a Lair of the Cliche Lord someday.

Hurry -- rather eager to see it done as an actual (albeit humorous) micro-dungeon through which to run player-characters!