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Q-man
09-09-2009, 07:02 AM
A while back I had this character concept in mind:


In keeping with his family tradition Jaliel joined the military (insert appropriate kingdom or town guard for you setting/starting point). He excelled during his training, and not long he was noticed by a group of Paladins. They explained what their order did and that he'd be an excellent candidate. Excited about the prospect of being able to better serve (his family or kingdom whichever) he eagerly joined up. After completing his training he was set out on various missions. What he found was that their divine mandate didn't agree with what Jaliel felt they should be doing. In his opinion they should spend more time helping and guarding the people, while instead they were guarding temples and holy places. In frustration he quits the order and sets out on his own.

The idea was to dual class him; a few levels in Paladin then drop that and take up something else, probably Fighter. According to the story when the dual class happens, thats when he starts his adventuring career.

Anyway, my question is how would the god of the paladin order feel about this? He's not technically a fallen paladin, since he didn't commit any act that violated his order. I hadn't intended for him to use his paladin powers, but lets say he was desparate and tried to do a lay on hands, what are the chances that the deity would grant that to him still?

I didn't actually pick a god for his order to follow, which probably impacts the reaction somewhat. His focus is on protecting people, so something like Helm seemed appropriate. He possibly ended up in a corrupt sect or something, which is why he was disgusted with how they conducted themselves.

mrken
09-09-2009, 07:15 AM
In my game he would loose his powers. The god would probably ignore him as he has done, unless he repented and made some penance. I think most good aligned gods would see his heart and realize he was talked into it and that he is just following his heart. An evil god might be angry and punish him, while a chaotic god might see this as an opportunity to mess with him.

Crossroads_Wanderer
09-09-2009, 07:39 AM
I think he would have to lose his paladin powers because leaving the order doesn't follow with a lawful alignment. If this is 3e, I believe that paladins lose all powers from multiclassing as well, except under special circumstances (certain feats, certain paladin orders allow it).

I think that Helm would probably frown on him breaking with the order because Helm is all about duty and is actually a LN deity. He would be more concerned with remaining with the order and following orders than with the greater good. Take someone like Torm (LG), maybe, and they are more likely to view his actions favorably. He would still probably have to find and join another paladin's order to retain his powers.

Farcaster
09-10-2009, 02:12 PM
If I were running the game, I would say that just because the paladin leaves the official church, it doesn't mean that he has lost faith in his god. Nor does it mean that he has to stop living by the tenets of his faith. If he were to do this, I would allow him to remain a paladin without being a member of the church, which is in line with the 3.5e rules. I would also allow him to continue advancing as a paladin, and I would encourage him to eventually start his own order.

But if he didn't want to continue gaining levels as a paladin, I would allow him to pickup levels in Paladin later if he so chose, as I believe Pathfinder does.

shilar
09-10-2009, 06:16 PM
If this is 3e, I believe that paladins lose all powers from multiclassing as well, except under special circumstances (certain feats, certain paladin orders allow it).
No, in 3E, he would still get to keep his powers after multiclassing as long as he retained a lawful good alignment. He just cannot continue to advance in paladin levels once he takes levels in another class. So the lesson is take your other levels first.

Grimwell
09-11-2009, 12:44 AM
In my game, I would not strip the character of his powers unless he did something to violate the tenants of his deity. Heck, in my game, I'd suggest that the character become an Avenger instead of Paladin. I'm playing 4E and it would mesh nicely with the background.

The final and only important answer though, is the one your GM gives. :)

DMMike
09-11-2009, 02:48 AM
The rules say one thing, but your campaign says another. In my campaign, paladin isn't just a class; it's a calling. You get paladin-ly powers for saying to your lawful-good god, "I offer my sword and my life to you." From this perspective, taking another class is diverting one's attention from achieving righteousness at the end of a sword. The penalty, for lack of single-minded dedication, would be a loss of special abilities and spells.

tesral
09-12-2009, 01:25 AM
It would depend entirely on the order and the God. In my game the rules bow to the setting.

"The Good Knights of the Order of St. Constant (http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com/fantasy/fantpdf/heaven.pdf)" serve only five years and are expected to leave the Order. they also don't get any clerical abilities. Other orders might require that the only way out is feet first.

I first think you need to decide what the tenets and oaths of the order are.

Baldwin Stonewood
09-12-2009, 06:10 AM
A lot would depend on the player development of the character. If they did not veer from alignment, I would not have paladin lose his powers. There may be quest the character would need to follow. A couple campaigns ago, I had a player who developed a paladin that was pretty cool until he got himself eaten by a green dragon; ah, but I digress, in that game the player was permitted to develop his paladin within reason.

wizarddog
09-12-2009, 12:32 PM
Since you don't start adventuring until the leaving of the order happens, then this should be just fluff. You should not be included in the Paldain class at all unless you plan on having him rejoin and start gaming Paladin levels. Instead, make him a fighter (or knight) and give him a rank in religion. That would establish his background.

If you want him to soemhow retain his godly powers he could also be a favored soul--just not a paladin.

Q-man
09-14-2009, 07:48 AM
Thanks for all the feedback on this! Sounds like its almost a 50/50 shot whether or not the god would revoke the powers. I actually didn't have a game lined up to use this character, so I never had a DM to ask about it. I just kinda liked the concept and thought it might be interesting to try.

The idea is that he's not angry with the god, just the way the paladin order is being lead. I suppose he's naively assuming that the orders come directly from the guard, but somewhere along the line corruption and greed have changed the orders. Possibly some government that the paladins work for are the cause. Anyway, not knowing all the facts the character blames the god and quits.

I couldn't quite decide how the god or the paladin order would feel about that though. As I said I hadn't planned on using the powers, but odds are good a situation would come up where they would be a life saver.

My guess was that his heart was in the right place so the god probably wouldn't deny him; but I suppose if I intended to use this concept I'd have to be pretty specific on the god and the paladin order so the exact reactions can be figured out.

Crossroads_Wanderer
09-15-2009, 11:04 AM
Given your description in your last post, I'd say that the ideal way to handle it would be for your character to either remain in the favor of the god and eventually come to have faith again, or for the deity to stop granting him powers for a while, until he regains faith. The former is a little cliche, but fits well in a game with more religious tones. The latter is more realistic, but doesnt provide much motivation for your character to return to his faith. I think it would really depend on the DM running the game, as to which they do, or whether they do something entirely different.

shilar
09-15-2009, 10:16 PM
Given your description in your last post, I'd say that the ideal way to handle it would be for your character to either remain in the favor of the god and eventually come to have faith again, or for the deity to stop granting him powers for a while, until he regains faith. The former is a little cliche, but fits well in a game with more religious tones. The latter is more realistic, but doesnt provide much motivation for your character to return to his faith. I think it would really depend on the DM running the game, as to which they do, or whether they do something entirely different.

or which way you'd like to take the character. As a DM I might grant you the boon of you paladin powers only under the most dramatic of circumstances. Or, possibly even set the order up as a kind of recurring sub plot eventually leading you to become the voice against the order and building one of your own as a counterpoint to the traditional order.

Malruhn
09-20-2009, 01:51 PM
Personally, I would have to look at the deity itself, and then the tenets and oaths that the Paladin took when he took on the mantle of P-hood. Some deities are vindictive, petty twits that would snatch up his abilities in less time than it took to say " ". Others would wait until he did something that in regular play would put his P-hood in jeopardy and then strip it. Others, still, would begin sending clerics and paladins to "reindoctinate" the poor guy. Imagine having your address sent to every church in town... *knock*knock*knock* "Hello Mr. Smith! I am from your order and I would like to discuss your plans for your immortal soul!"

Then I would look at the Order rules itself. Most that I've seen written don't have a specific rule that says "The only way out is in a body bag". However, there may be "unwritten" rules, kinda like "Once a Marine, always a Marine."

Interesting concept, though!!

MrFrost
10-24-2009, 08:01 AM
I dont know, a different deitie may attempt to pick him up that more closely follows his beliefs. I dont think it is an unlawful act to leave the order/church when you dont agree with how they go about doing things. Is the character still lawful good? Does this character still follow the same deitie? Does this character go out of their way to do good? These are questions that need to be asked.

lomifeh
10-25-2009, 12:01 AM
I dont know, a different deitie may attempt to pick him up that more closely follows his beliefs. I dont think it is an unlawful act to leave the order/church when you dont agree with how they go about doing things. Is the character still lawful good? Does this character still follow the same deitie? Does this character go out of their way to do good? These are questions that need to be asked.

This could lead into all sorts of interesting things. Is the new deity considered poaching the character? Will the original deity not stand the loss to another god? Are there laws among the gods that govern this? It could lead to anything from, well nothing happening, to an all out religious war between the two religions. Maybe the character needs to go on a quest as a "payback" to the old god. That would be all sorts of fun.

tesral
10-25-2009, 02:21 AM
It all comes down to; what are the rules the Paladin is working under?

Decide those and the course is clear. Without them you can argue it all day, but with no idea of what you are arguing.

Ladern
10-28-2009, 03:29 PM
I guess the point u can stress is the Lawful vs Good aspect of his behavior.

I will use ur lines a guide to demostrate this on my opinion.

In keeping with his family tradition (lawful act) Jaliel joined the military and not long he was noticed by a group of Paladins... (prob not for good acts, but for discipline and martial ability) he eagerly joined up. (lawful) After completing (...) he found was that their divine mandate didn't agree with what Jaliel felt they should be doing. In his opinion they should spend more time helping and guarding the people, while instead they were guarding temples and holy places. (as written, the pallys are not making nothing Evil, but rather the methods they employ are not what ur character want them to be) In frustration he quits the order and sets out on his own. (disobeying the orders laws about not quiting, clearly a Chaotic act)

OK maybe the not quiting rule is not written but is implicit, this act is called to desert or to defect, which is against the law (and even punished on many organizations). So ur Pally would loose his palladinhood not because hes doing something Evil, but for doing something Chaotic.

How would the god will see it? If he allows the main Order to "guard temples and holy places" without loosing his status, then he agrees with this behavior and probably will see with bad eyes if u turn back without a blink.

A more lawfull act would be a public denunciation about what ur character thinks is bad in the Church, then the confrontation with the (most probably) Lawful Neutral leader that thinks his duty is with the deity first and officially resignation of the order by ur character.

This way u have a character that is on good stance with his deity (cause his acts where carried in a lawful way and inspired by good reasons), is out of the church cause is (corrupted/not what he wanted) and decides to not use his pally abilities not cause they dont work, but because his disappointed with the organization which teach them in the first place.

WhiskeyFur
10-29-2009, 07:05 PM
Interesting question, I've never thought about that before.

Seeing as I believe RP override rules, that it really comes down to the paladin's belief in his god, if he's willing to continue to work in the god's interests, and if that god is willing to have a rogue agent in his following.

If the answer to all three is yes, then the church has no say on whether or not he is 'officially' a paladin. That's between him and his god, to heck with what the elders might say.

They might even be pissed enough to call him a heretic but if that happens... then they instead might be stripped of powers, depending on how far they go to satiate their wounded pride. that or the god might be willing to let them duke it out to see whose the better man.

It all depends on the god.

Richard Littles
10-29-2009, 07:35 PM
....does he get to collect unemployment? :D

Dr.Dead
10-29-2009, 08:53 PM
If a paladin quits his job he loses his powers and his god would probibly ignore him but he will become a fighter with the same hit points and same skills and feats and attack bonuses but lose all his spells and class abilities

tesral
10-30-2009, 01:48 AM
It all depends on the god.

And there you have it. You must first define the god and the religion, only then can you decide what "quitting the order" means.

Who is wrong here? The order or the Paladin? Again, one must decide. This is why "Lawful Good" is not enough definition.



If a paladin quits his job he loses his powers and his god would probably ignore him but he will become a fighter with the same hit points and same skills and feats and attack bonuses but lose all his spells and class abilities

Very good, right from the book However the book is not the game. "guidelines", remember? That does not address the question as to what any of the terms actually mean. I would be sorely disappointed in the DM that could only read the book.

Q-man
10-30-2009, 07:36 AM
Guess I should have stopped in here more often to see. Seems like the consensus is that it comes down to his god and what the tenets are.

As it turns out the DM turned the whole thing into part of the campaign. He made it that the holy order was in fact corrupt, the party needed to unseat some infiltrators from an evil cult from leadership positions. This justified my characters actions, so the god was pleased and didn't revoke his powers.

The way I played it was that he was still unhappy with the order, and never retook his position as a paladin. So the powers were available, but were unused the whole time.

It definitely became a bigger question than just what the rules said. I would think that in other campaigns with other deities things would have been different. It was pretty fun to play him though.

shilar
10-30-2009, 03:30 PM
It definitely became a bigger question than just what the rules said. I would think that in other campaigns with other deities things would have been different. It was pretty fun to play him though.

i bet kudos to your DM for running with such a great character hook.