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View Full Version : Do you think there'll be a 4.5?



James Ruglia
08-28-2009, 04:48 PM
I was just about to finally order my first 4e book, when I was looking over the product reviews and realized:

Is there going to be a 4.5? If they were to release a 4.5, it'd make money and that's what they want. They made a 3.5, and 3.0/3.5/4.0 have all come out in such a close timeframe that a 4.5 doesn't seem at all unlikely. I've looked around for topics on a hypothetical 4.5, but nothing comes up. Then again, using the forum's "search" option wouldn't bring up any topics or posts with "4" in the name when the first page had a topic named "Dark Sun for 4e!".

I got the 3.0 rulebook and then 3.5 came out before I ever got to "use" 3.0. The thought of 3.5 came out of the blue then, but I certainly don't want to waste the money and shelf space repeating a now-excpectable mistake.

Dark
08-28-2009, 05:14 PM
Is there $$$$ to be had in making a 4.5? Well there you go then. ;)

wizarddog
08-28-2009, 05:17 PM
If 4e turns into a broken mess that requires a major overhaul of the rules, them 4.5 will be on shelve near you.

I don't think that will happen. So much of the choices you had in 3.0/3.5 to exploit don't exist in 4e. But give it time...:laugh:

Farcaster
08-28-2009, 08:02 PM
From what I have seen, Wizards has changed it's model since the release of 3rd edition. They have already planned to release a new players handbook and new dungeon masters guide every year. With each new iteration, you'll see changes in the game. So instead of having a massive update like 3.0 to 3.5, you'll have iterations that update and expand the game every year. The upside is that they are doing their best to not invalidate the previous material. The downside is that they have publicly stated that their focus is on producing new material to augment the game and not deal with mistakes that they admit they made in the original design -- i.e. minions, solos, etc.

James Ruglia
08-28-2009, 08:10 PM
Is this true?

Then they're not planning on making a replacement PH1, just PH2-3+ and such?

That helps things. Thank you very much.

Valdar
08-29-2009, 11:39 AM
Yep. You can think of each year as a .1 iteration.

4.0 was the core game, but missing Bard, Barbarian, Gnome, Druid, Sorcerer, Monk. 4.0's setting is Forgotten Realms, and uses the Arcane, Divine, and Martial power sources.

4.1 added those back (minus Monk), and adds the Primal (nature) power source. 4.1's setting is Eberron.

4.2 will add the Psionic power source and Githzerai next year. 4.2's setting is Dark Sun.

Will there be a 4.5? I think so, but I doubt I'll be playing it. It will probably have Blackmoor as the setting, the Technology power source, and Kuo-Toa as a player race...

Windstar
08-29-2009, 11:45 AM
PHB2 has an appendix in it that updates PHB1, I am thinking they will do this in each version of the new series, ie DMG2, PHB3, MM3 and so on. I don't think they will come out directly with a 4.5, atleast not anytime soon.

DMMike
08-30-2009, 10:49 AM
I'm looking at what happened with Polymorph in 3.X. At first, it just needed some tweaking, so they did that in 3.5. Then more prestige classes and monsters came out, which turned Polymorph into a disastrous mess (I still use it as-is. The DM wand does wondrous things).

So Forry has some new rules that could eventually break over time. Action points, healing surges, interrupt actions, at-will powers, ritual spells. Not to mention this thing I heard about Rangers being broken right off the bat (and errata-ed). This stuff can well break, and if a 4.5 doesn't come out, there'll be a series of PHBX and DMGX that revamp all the cracks in the system.

templeorder
08-30-2009, 10:20 PM
I have to think right now its so motivated by $$$$... my opinion would be too biased.

James Ruglia
08-30-2009, 11:05 PM
Then so far is the general consensus that PHB1 probably won't be outright replaced?

How much does PHB2/3 "amend" the first one? Do I really need to get them or risk using broken/outdated versions of the first book's rules? Or is it mostly little stuff like slight price adjustments or clarifications for occasionally confusing rulings?

Q-man
08-31-2009, 07:22 AM
Then so far is the general consensus that PHB1 probably won't be outright replaced?

How much does PHB2/3 "amend" the first one? Do I really need to get them or risk using broken/outdated versions of the first book's rules? Or is it mostly little stuff like slight price adjustments or clarifications for occasionally confusing rulings?

PHB2 actually didn't change any of the major rules that were presented in PHB1. Its main focus was in adding new content like races, classes, and feats. So it ends up being more of an extension of PHB1 rather than a revision. The same appears true for the PHB3, new classes and races. The big tweak there will be what they call hybrid classes, which is really a new multiclass option.

From what I understand they are doing similar with the DMG's. They've said that DMG2 will focus on Paragon tier stuff, since DMG1 was pretty general. Then DMG3 will cover the Epic tier adventures. This way the bulk of the content is new additions rather than invalidate whats in the previous book.



Wizards has announced a list of books up till the end of 2010 (you can see the list here (http://www.critical-hits.com/2009/08/17/gencon-2009-4e-extravaganza-with-photos/)). So you've got at least that long.

It does seem like their intention is to continue to build on 4E for the forseeable future. I suspect that eventually the rules will get pretty muddled with all the tweaks and updates in the books that eventually a 4.5 or 5.0 edition will be necessary. I figure thats many years away though, so I doubt thats a huge concern.

WhiteTiger
08-31-2009, 08:07 AM
From what I have seen, Wizards has changed it's model since the release of 3rd edition. They have already planned to release a new players handbook and new dungeon masters guide every year. With each new iteration, you'll see changes in the game. So instead of having a massive update like 3.0 to 3.5, you'll have iterations that update and expand the game every year. The upside is that they are doing their best to not invalidate the previous material. The downside is that they have publicly stated that their focus is on producing new material to augment the game and not deal with mistakes that they admit they made in the original design -- i.e. minions, solos, etc.

That sounds a lot like Games Workshop and their Warhammer / Warhammer 40k franchise. they are up to something like 7th edition in warhammer and 5th in 40. Not to mention everytime a new White Dwarf issue came out there was always new errata or something new that you had to get to stay competitive.

Valdar
08-31-2009, 12:24 PM
As I recall, the revisions from PHB1 were minor, and incremental- the biggest one being the rules for stealthing in combat.

The big revision in DMG2 will certainly be skill challenges.

Note that in both cases (assuming I'm right about DMG2), the rule updates were online before they were in the books. So, if you keep an eye on Wizards' site, you don't need DMG2 or PHB3 to pick up the revisions, so your PHB1 will never be replaced like the 3.0 PHB was.

Thorn
09-06-2009, 03:20 PM
In 4th. edition a wait and see view to things to come.

Grimwell
09-07-2009, 11:47 AM
I liken the effect of the PHB1, PHB2, PHB3 concept to the impact of Unearth Arcana on 1E AD&D. It added new classes and options, and some rules to the game, but it didn't make you toss out the earlier books; you used them all together.

mrken
09-07-2009, 03:21 PM
The question of this topic has me a bit confused. Are you really looking for an answer to your question, or, are you looking for debate and insight?

As you know from history, the DnD game has had a few revisions. They have to do this because the game is still evolving. I don't expect it to ever stop evolving, because once it does it will stop making money for WotC or whom ever owns the license at the time. It has to go to 5th edition, and then 6th ed. and so on.

If you are still playing 4.0 when it goes to the next edition it will make 4th ed. as irrelevant as 3.5 is at the moment. In other words, there will be those who jump to the latest and greatest edition and those who are happy with the current edition and those who quit throwing their money at WotC (or TSR as it might be) when the edition was upgraded. I bought into the game at 2.0 (was it AD&D then?). I got off the money train at 3.5.

To be truthful with you, after looking at history and extrapolating the future, I truthfully expect my grandchildren to be carrying around PDF's or whatever the medium will be of 7th, 8th and 9th editions. If WotC wants to stay in business can you expect anything different? Changing the edition is as inevitable as the sun coming up tomorrow. Sure it is possible that it won't but not likely.

When some people say 4.0 will be around for a long time, or for the foreseeable future, that makes me think they are young and speaking in relative terms. For them a long time is two, three or four years. For me, a long time is ten or twenty years. For some reason I can't imagine 4.0 lasting a long time. Four years, yeah, I can imagine that, three years? Yeah, that too.

jonnyrockshard
09-09-2009, 02:28 PM
I... fail to see any real evidence of a 4.5.
Yeah we've had ONE half edition, 3.5. That's it. 3rd edition was also Wizards first time doing D&D, so I can see how they'd like a revision. It's all just baseless claims anyway. All we ever hear is that we'll get a 4.5 because Wizards are greedy and frankly thats not enough to sell an arguement. If they make a 4.5 then they make a 4.5, but I'll wait until they do to worry about it.

Ph0EnyX37
09-09-2009, 04:54 PM
I recall reading somewhere (can't recall when or where) one of the developers specifically addressing this question. My recollection of it was that they designed 4e in a way to avoid having to do something like a 3.5 revision, but that they'd do all the big errata-ing in the PHB series, since there would be a new PHB every year or thereabouts.

As far as WotC being greedy... you can call them that if you want, but you have to ask yourself this: do you value the existence of a gaming industry? If we're all of us just hobbyists and nobody is making a living off this, does that make things better in the long run?

Ianos
09-10-2009, 08:45 AM
Actually I believe it would. The package may have been less flashy but things would have been better in the long run. The problem is that lack of time makes most of us turn to ready-to-play material when we should have been making our own, which is (for me at least) an essential part of the genre, and thus the money train...

As far as editions go, I want to believe that Wizards will eventually realize that there is a way to finance their prodcuts without resorting to a new edition every 2 - 3 years. 2nd edition was around for approx. 10 years and as far as I can tell it did alright.

A new edition every 2 - 3 years is really about greed, not just money or a simple industry...

Q-man
09-10-2009, 08:59 AM
There are ways to make money without new editions, the most obvious is to keep producing more material for the current edition. Additional races, classes, character options, campaign settings, and adventure modules. Which is basically what sustained 2E for so long.

The question I have is "Who is this better for?"

For long time players its great, we love getting new stuff to use in our games. It doesn't save us from buying anything. We're still picking up new books constantly so that we can get the new content. So really its the same cost if its a new edition or a bunch of supplemental rule sets.

For new players it gets pretty intimidating really fast. They are looking at three Player's Handbooks (well soon, PHB3 isn't out yet), thats a lot to buy and read before playing. Granted they don't need to read all that, but they are new and probably wouldn't know which ones are required unless they've had some guidance. Also if the game they are joining is using stuff from those they'll eventually need to understand whats going on. With a new edition there is less material to read and try to understand, so its less intimidating for new folks.

Finally for WotC, they do need to keep in business some how, and that means having something to sell. Its in their best interests to refresh the game from time to time to get some new people interested. The rules have to change to adapt to what the gamers want. If they can achieve that with minor rules tweaks along the way, great. If not then they'll need to create a new edition.

Valdar
09-11-2009, 12:14 PM
As far as editions go, I want to believe that Wizards will eventually realize that there is a way to finance their prodcuts without resorting to a new edition every 2 - 3 years. 2nd edition was around for approx. 10 years and as far as I can tell it did alright.

2nd edition was published by TSR, which is now defunct. Not what I call doing "alright"...

Hoitash
09-11-2009, 01:19 PM
Wasnt the president a major b word though?

cigamnogard
09-11-2009, 06:15 PM
There are ways to make money without new editions, the most obvious is to keep producing more material for the current edition. Additional races, classes, character options, campaign settings, and adventure modules. Which is basically what sustained 2E for so long.

I agree and honestly I am skipping 4.0 and waiting for 5.0

Ianos
09-14-2009, 07:23 AM
2nd edition was published by TSR, which is now defunct. Not what I call doing "alright"...

TSR was bought by Wizards and absorbed which is not the same as defunkt. If there was no money to be made no one would have bought it in the first place.

Valdar
09-14-2009, 04:40 PM
TSR was bought by Wizards and absorbed which is not the same as defunkt. If there was no money to be made no one would have bought it in the first place.

TSR was on the verge of bankruptcy when Wizards bought them, and WotC only brought over some of the staff and closed the offices- that sounds like "defunct" rather than "alright" to me.

Grimwell
09-16-2009, 01:10 AM
Wow, now I really feel old. So much time has passed that there is confusion on the TSR > WotC transition?

Pure and simple, if WotC hadn't stepped in, TSR would have gone under. Completely. The IP's would have been divvied up and sold off, but it wouldn't have been good, at all.

Why would someone buy a broke company? Because they think they can make a profit on the product where the current owner is failing. Which is what Wizards did.

WhiteTiger
09-16-2009, 11:20 AM
Personally, I feel that with all of the splatbook releases especially with player's handbook 3 due out next year. The new hybrid character system that they are testing is all about either giving out another option or fixing an old option that wasn't that great to begin with. I think that 4.0 will essentially evolve into a 4.1 or 4.2 system anyway given enough time, enough errata and enough splatbooks... :D

DMMike
09-18-2009, 01:51 PM
Crystal Ball: Forry is just a stalling technique to let 3.5 get old, the books wear out and fade away. Once that is accomplished, WotC is bringing 3.5 back and calling it "Dungeons and Dragons: Advanced" (with lots of flashy new books, complete with paper-thin dice-rolling calculators in the hardcovers).

James Ruglia
09-22-2009, 10:21 PM
Hm... Quite a discussion this became. I only wanted an answer, not debating, but I also realized that no sure-as-what-goes-up-must-come-down answer exists, so it's unavoidable.

I think I'll get the books.

And with the penny they charge for the books alone, more or less any and all computer-help content, they certainly can't justify even -more- money with a 3.5. If they can afford to run DnDOnline for free, they should've taken down DnDInsider's price a bit, or reduced the suggested retail prices for books or something @.@

Farcaster
09-22-2009, 10:39 PM
If they can afford to run DnDOnline for free, they should've taken down DnDInsider's price a bit, or reduced the suggested retail prices for books or something @.@

Just to point out, when you say "they" can afford to run D&D Online for free, the "they" is not Wizards of the Coast. It is Turbine, and I believe that they are trying to monetize it through micro-transactions. We'll see how that pans out though.

Grimwell
09-23-2009, 12:23 AM
The early response to Turbine's DDO Unlimited has been pretty good. I don't know if they are making any money, but they are seeing a very nice surge of players.

Skunkape
09-23-2009, 06:24 AM
Just to point out, when you say "they" can afford to run D&D Online for free, the "they" is not Wizards of the Coast. It is Turbine, and I believe that they are trying to monetize it through micro-transactions. We'll see how that pans out though.

I don't know how well that business model is working for Turbine, but Sony has done something similar but they've been doing it for somewhere between 6 months and a year, so I think that it's working for Sony.

cigamnogard
09-24-2009, 04:41 PM
In 4th. edition a wait and see view to things to come.
More books = more $