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PhishStyx
05-29-2009, 11:35 AM
After just now watching a commercial attempting to portray the Canadian healthcare system as a horrible place to get sick, I'd like to hear from some actual Canadians on the topic.

The commercial claimed as example the story of an unnamed woman who says she waited 6 months to have "[her] brain tumor taken care of."

This commercial also stated that Canadians do not have access to the same number and quality of medications as we in the US do because, and I quote, "the Canadian Government doesn't think its citizens matter."

Uh, WHAT?! This is just more Republican crapdickery, right?

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
05-29-2009, 03:35 PM
One of my best friends is Canadian. I told him about this thread so he can chime in. Basically, it is really bad, especially if you're older or your problem is serious. He has alot to say regarding this issue.

mrken
05-29-2009, 03:53 PM
It's free, what else do you need to know? Someone else pays the bill so don't worry.

korhal23
05-29-2009, 04:42 PM
The particular ad you mention sounds like, well, an ad (30 second spots are not known for getting much real information across). What was this an ad for, though? I find it hard to believe there'd be a spot about why Canadian healthcare blows if it isn't trying to either promote a candidate for something, or to oppose Obama's proposed healthcare reform. If it's the former, the guy is probably not going to win on that platform, but if it's that latter, I am going to agree with it in principle (http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/html/pa638/pa638index.html) even if how it tells its message is, well... bad.

tesral
05-29-2009, 05:28 PM
I have not a clue. I don't live there and therefor do not deal with it.

PhishStyx
05-29-2009, 07:14 PM
The particular ad you mention sounds like, well, an ad (30 second spots are not known for getting much real information across). What was this an ad for, though? I find it hard to believe there'd be a spot about why Canadian healthcare blows if it isn't trying to either promote a candidate for something, or to oppose Obama's proposed healthcare reform. If it's the former, the guy is probably not going to win on that platform, but if it's that latter, I am going to agree with it in principle (http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/html/pa638/pa638index.html) even if how it tells its message is, well... bad.

Ah yes the Cato Institute, there's nothing like quoting an ultra-conservative, Far-right extremist group masquerading as genuine libertarianism to give me confidence in your opinion.

Thanks, but no.

templeorder
05-29-2009, 08:01 PM
I've spent a lot of time in Canada, and i've been around the world so i've had some experience with medicine globally... i'm no expert though. And i don't live in Canada, and do not know whats gone on with their health care system in the last few years. Canadian medicine seems to get good reviews for standard health monitoring... its not preventative, but it seems to catch a lot of conditions and people get diagnosis in time. They lack the massive base of specialist that the US has though, and it is in part due to simple economics - the specialists cannot charge the same as their US counterpart (to an extent) so there's less economic incentive to take the schooling and go into those practices... Its very complicated, and i don't want to over-simplify it... but the 2 canadian friends i had while i was a consultant basically said its a great place to be sick, unless you are REALLY sick. I got sick in Canada (flu) and was WELL taken care of - got in right away, got meds, got follow up. Getting really sick then - for my friends - the U.S is spectacular in terms of critical treatments and specialty care... its just $$$. In the late 1990's the Canadian health care system threatened to backrupt the country... its still used as a pointer as to why socialized health care does not work. Its a false pointer for many reasons, but i won't go into that. There's not really a good answer to health care - no nation in the situation america finds itself in can really afford it as a national cost, yet health care is out of control...

I have a lot of arguments with people who claim health care is not a right, its a privelage. To some extent that is true, but basic health care should be affordable, and really, don't you want to live in a world where having be a right is a goal? sounds noble - getting there's a whole other issue - but I submit that maybe its a better goal than some we are following...

Now i'm rambling, but there you go, my 2 cents...

Bearfoot_Adam
06-04-2009, 11:31 AM
I would recommend watching Sicko. Yes it is Michael Moore so he does take some liberties but I felt that this latest was much better then Fahrenheit or Bowling. It was much closer to Roger and Me as far as good quality documentary film making. Even if their health care system is not as good at high end Procedures, something I am not convinced of, it still has a better median health coverage than what we have in the states. It may not be perfect but it is better than all the suffering that happens here.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-04-2009, 11:38 AM
He lied in Sicko, and got called on it even by the Canadians(media folks). He lied about Cuba as well. I realize the left loves this guy, but please, check his work. The man has no integrity. What bothers me about this guy is that many wanted to debate him(even from the left) regarding this liefest of a movie, and he refused!

When folks with serious health problems in other parts of the world, they don't choose Canada or Cuba, they choose America, and for good reason.

This is not to say we don't have serious issues here, we do, but so does everyone else. It's about give and take. I'd rather have 'serious' problems here than anywhere else.

Bearfoot Adam, please note that i have nothing but respect for you, it's the movie i don't care for. So please don't misconstrue my comments towards the movie as an attack on your person, for those aren't my intentions.

PhishStyx
06-04-2009, 11:46 AM
He lied in Sicko, and got called on it even by the Canadians(media folks). He lied about Cuba as well. I realize the left loves this guy, but please, check his work. The man has no integrity. What bothers me about this guy is that many wanted to debate him(even from the left) regarding this liefest of a movie, and he refused!

When folks with serious health problems in other parts of the world, they don't choose Canada or Cuba, they choose America, and for good reason.

This is not to say we don't have serious issues here, we do, but so does everyone else. It's about give and take. I'd rather have 'serious' problems here than anywhere else.

I would be very interested to see your non-partisan sources. (ie Not the Cato Institute or any of the other Republican/conservative leaning "think tanks" set up primarily to be mouthpieces that don't have the word Conservative in them.)

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-04-2009, 11:49 AM
You assume alot, which discredits you. I never mentioned conservatism, republican, or anything else pertaining to the right.

Bearfoot_Adam
06-04-2009, 12:00 PM
As stated he does take liberties, often Gross liberties, especially in Fahrenheit and Bowling. However I felt that Sicko (the Cuba scenes aside) was slightly more balanced.

Sicko aside. I still feel that Canada's, and other nations, have a superior health system to ours. Yes many come here for treatment of serious ailments however we do go north to get prescription medicine. I am looking at the median level of care. (essentially the most good for the most people) and it seems Canada is above us in that regard. What I am pleased to know is that finally both sides of Government have realized that our current health care system does not work. I strongly believe in social programs and I feel that a social health care system will be the most efficient way to provide that greatest level of care to the greatest number of people.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-04-2009, 12:42 PM
Well, whether i like social health care or not, i will deal with it for that is the direction America is going in. It is my belief that we will see it in the next 4-8 years, here.

Don't misunderstand, there are aspects i like, i just also have serious concerns. i guess that describes most of us, though. As long as no one takes away my gaming, I'll be fine.

PhishStyx
06-04-2009, 12:43 PM
You assume alot, which discredits you. I never mentioned conservatism, republican, or anything else pertaining to the right.

I didn't assume anything. You didn't mention the right at all, no, but you certainly used the phrase "the left" like a baseball bat.

Moreover, the previous poster to take your stance quoted a Cato Institute report, and I'm discounting that on the basis of that group's widely known political stances.

I'm asking if you have non-partisan sources. Do you or not?

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-04-2009, 12:47 PM
The left does love this guy(not an accusation, but an accepted fact), and if you missed all the investigative reporting and his avoiding of important questions regarding his film, then that's on you. Deal with it.

And if you want to know more, be proactive. Otherwise, :focus:

PhishStyx
06-04-2009, 01:19 PM
The left does love this guy(not an accusation, but an accepted fact), and if you missed all the investigative reporting and his avoiding of important questions regarding his film, then that's on you. Deal with it.

And if you want to know more, be proactive. Otherwise, :focus:

Ok, putting you down as "snarky conservative, angry about losing Dick Cheney in White House" and "unable to back up statements" Got it, thanks for showing your actual position.

MortonStromgal
06-04-2009, 01:34 PM
I wish I remember where I read the following but.

The US has more medical breakthrough and better heath care than any other nation (better does not mean everyone gets treated rather those who recieve care get better care). However it costs 5 times the amount of Sweeden's health care system (per citizen) which has half the amount of breakthroughs and almost as good health care. So basically we don't spend our money as wisely as other nations.


Ok, putting you down as "snarky conservative, angry about losing Dick Cheney in White House" and "unable to back up statements" Got it, thanks for showing your actual position.

I'm a democrat, voted obama, hate bush... and even I hate Micheal Moore. I put him right up there with Rush Limbaugh level of detestable people.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-04-2009, 01:36 PM
Again, you're assuming. Anyone who knows who Michael Moore is knows he's proud of being a liberal. Anyone who watches his movie, even knows this. Stating fact doesn't put me on the other side of the fence. Oh, and btw, many democrats hate Michael Moore, so stop acting like i attacked everyone on the left, and that i must be on the right.

If you need me to do your research for you, then this just shows that you are a follower. Grow up, and question why it bothers you so that i disagree with Sicko.

Dimthar
06-04-2009, 01:46 PM
1) How much We as Individuals are willing to give/share with others for the Community/Nation's Benefit.

First, lets clarify, the ultimate goal is to have "Universal Healthcare", not "Social Healthcare".

Which means, we agree that everybody deserves Good Health Care.

2) Once We decide to Give, What is the best system to achieve the better results.

Government Run? Private Companies?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Is my impression that this Administration views the "Lack of Universal Healthcare" as a Morally Unacceptable condition for the USA. And it will prefer an inefficient and wasteful system than rather be guilty of inaction.

Now, this is USA, which mean if there is a place with a chance to give everyone good healthcare in a privately run system, that place is here.

PhishStyx
06-04-2009, 02:51 PM
Again, you're assuming. Anyone who knows who Michael Moore is knows he's proud of being a liberal. Anyone who watches his movie, even knows this. Stating fact doesn't put me on the other side of the fence. Oh, and btw, many democrats hate Michael Moore, so stop acting like i attacked everyone on the left, and that i must be on the right.

If you need me to do your research for you, then this just shows that you are a follower. Grow up, and question why it bothers you so that i disagree with Sicko.

A) You aren't asking that I do my own research, you're demanding that I do YOUR research for you. You made a declarative statement against a movie that I haven't seen and don't care about one way or the other. When I asked you to back YOUR OWN statements with documentation, you got rude and insulting, which tells me that you don't have any documentation and now need to hide that fact.

Now why would someone who by his own admission hates Mr. Left Leaning Moore not have a means to back it up? Answer: You're a closet conservative who wants to attack all those of us evil dis-patriots who dare question you, the good angelic perfect conservative without consequences, putting the onus on anyone who questions you is the easiest way to accomplish that goal.

I don't care that you disagree with Moore or his movie. I don't care either way about Moore at all. I simply asked and am still asking that you provide non-partisan documentation showing how and where he lied as you put it.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-04-2009, 02:58 PM
If you truly believed beyond a doubt that you were right, you wouldn't care what i believe. Fact is, your feathers are all ruffled and you continue to jack this thread.

One poster recommended Sicko, i recommended against. That's it, there's nothing more to it except your refusal to acknowledge and respect others opinions. Stop jacking this thread. I don't care if you don't agree, show me the same respect.

Now, :focus:

mrken
06-04-2009, 03:00 PM
If one wants to know what Canadian health care is like just use the internet. In just a few minutes I found dozens of sites with information about Canada and it's situation with their lack of MRI's.

Friend of mine who's mother may be dieing is a nurse and was in a hospital and couldn't get an MRI. He tells me it will be several months before her turn comes up. She might be dead by then, we are hoping not.

The way the U.S. will reform our health care will be to limit it. Old people and people who are real sick will not get the level of care they need. If you have a cold you will be ok as a box of napkins are cheap. If you need chemo, well, that is expensive, come back in six months and we will see what we can do.

Currently, we do have a problem with our health care system. Lots of people don't have it, err, sort of. Some can afford it but choose to not pay for it until they are sick or hurt. But when someone can walk across the border and into a hospital, they get health care. We don't have a problem with people not getting health care, we have a problem with people not having health insurance.

Hey, try some of the sites I found. See what you think after you read some facts. These are not right wing hate groups, or left wing propagandists. Just a smattering of facts, as given by different sources. Yes, you must read them to find out what they say, and yes you must process them to get a bigger picture and then you must analyze the data. But then, if you want to know the truth, you need to do your own thinking, not relying on someone else to think for you. Don't be a dweeb on the left or the right. Get smart and think for yourself. It will transform you and make you truly dangerous. :)

http://www.vhl.org/newsletter/vhl2001/01bjmric.php

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/canMRIgap.html

http://www.nationalreviewofmedicine.com/issue/2005/05_15/2_pulse_09.html

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/119356.php

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050502/NEWS32/505020311&SearchID=73208463294205

http://www.utmj.org/issues/79.1/Economics.pdf

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/04/21/mri040421.html

http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/dispPage.jsp?cw_page=media_13jan2005_e

PhishStyx
06-04-2009, 03:11 PM
Thank you MrKen for being the first one even to attempt to be helpful.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-04-2009, 03:15 PM
First one? LOL

MrKen, and myself have researched the net. You, however, have not. A child doesn't learn lessons when one does it for him, the child must do it himself. I question and research everything, not demand others to do it for me. A good rule to live by, otherwise, we become sheep. I refuse to be in the sheeple crowd.

Now, :focus:

PhishStyx
06-04-2009, 03:22 PM
First one? LOL

MrKen, and myself have researched the net. You, however, have not. A child doesn't learn lessons when one does it for him, the child must do it himself. I question and research everything, not demand others to do it for me. A good rule to live by, otherwise, we become sheep. I refuse to be in the sheeple crowd.

Now, :focus:

You know, I'm getting tired of you calling me names because you can't do your own research. So . . .I reported you.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-04-2009, 03:25 PM
You reported me? Hilarious!

mrken
06-04-2009, 03:28 PM
Just trying to be helpful. Mostly by trying to get people to start thinking. BTW, I don't think Thoth was calling you specifically a sheep, but people in general.

Dimthar
06-04-2009, 03:39 PM
The way the U.S. will reform our health care will be to limit it. Old people and people who are real sick will not get the level of care they need. If you have a cold you will be ok as a box of napkins are cheap. If you need chemo, well, that is expensive, come back in six months and we will see what we can do


I have to disagree, there is no indication that the Private Medical System (Hospitals and Doctors) will fall into the hands of the government. Therefore Canada is a bad example.

It seems to me that the "Health Insurance" System which even Medicare/Medicaid follow will prevail.

I am going to use Mexico as an example of what I believe is a good idea (unfortunately not properly implemented).

In the case of retirement (Mexico), Social Security Pensions disappeared, it was changed to a 401K type system. The way it works is the Employer and the Employee by Mandate contribute to a retirement account. The employee has the option to choose between all Private Companies that administrate retirement funds. In case the employee does not choose, it will go to a "Government Run" company.

So, something tells me the US Congress will do something like setting standard Premiums costs and mandate coverage. This "Insurance Policies" will guarantee some type of minimum coverage and a No Preconditions clause. Of course to those that can afford it, the Insurance Companies will offer the Policy Plus, Silver, Gold and Platinum.

I would like to see something like the Government picking up all Medical Bills after your Lifetime Maximum has been exhausted.

But that is just me ...

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-04-2009, 03:45 PM
I would agree with you, Dimthar. I hate seeing people lose everything due to medical complications. That should never happen, and i, too, would love to see the govt pick up the medical bills after your lifetime maximum is exhausted.

mrken
06-04-2009, 04:12 PM
Well, the future is yet to be written. You could be right or you could be wrong. I have lived long enough to remember Hillery Care. What she was proposing is pretty much what President Obama is proposing. The implementation is yet to be discovered.

What I would like to see and what I expect to see have very little influence on the coming health care system whatever it will be. I suspect the president has his ideas and is working on fulfilling them without any input from the citizens of this country. Maybe a few insiders get some say, but the rest of us will get what they give us I am sure.

It seems the plan is currently for a single payer system where the government is the HMO. Back in the day I worked for a very large insurance company and now I have a very large HMO. Neither of them is what I really want but both of them keep costs down, mostly by denying, rationing and delaying expenditures as well as limiting payments to what is know as Reasonable and Customary. That was always a big fight with the providers. What we are going to get is more of the same with a huge political and medical bureaucracy that doesn't have any real oversight. Imagine Freddi and Fanny on steroids. Every person in the U.S. by law must pay them premiums.

As for being able to pay for a better insurance than the standard fare, be prepared to pay heavily as the president has already stated this would be heavily taxed.
--- Merged from Double Post ---
We should have catastrophic health care. I know some people who do. The premiums are very low. They also get to choose what care they want. They don't go to the doctor all the time and they pay at the door. But, if ever anything should go wrong, the insurance would kick in and cover them. Sort of like I pay to go to the doctors office, my meds and any durable medical equipment I might need, the insurance pays for the hospital visits if there should ever be any.

Farcaster
06-04-2009, 05:01 PM
Guys, play nice.

First of all, discussing politics or political hot-button topics invites heated arguments, regardless of whether the topic is meant to be nonpartisan or not. If you cannot take some amount of disagreement without making the argument personal, then my advice is not to participate in these kinds of threads. But if you are going to participate in debates like this, keep it about the topic at hand and not about the person making the argument.

From the Forum Rules:

Respect fellow members. *Avoid personal attacks and flames. Debate opinions, not the people behind them. This includes posting images as a representation of your attack. *Inflammatory language or images is not acceptable. *If you can't find a polite way of expressing your opinion, take a break, maybe sleep on it, and come back to it when you can express yourself calmly.

Dimthar
06-04-2009, 06:04 PM
We should have catastrophic health care. I know some people who do. The premiums are very low.

In my particular case, the cost of COBRA (Previous Employer) was $10K, cost for a High Deductible ($10K) Premium is $3K (2 Adults/2 Children).

I wouldn't mind making $10K a year more and be taxed for it, I would be able to pay $3K and deduct $7K/year if I deposit the difference in an HSA. This would definitely stimulate Prevention Care (which is actually "included" in the High Deductible Policy). After some years, I may stop contributing to the HSA and fund an IRA or a 529.


As for being able to pay for a better insurance than the standard fare, be prepared to pay heavily as the president has already stated this would be heavily taxed.

One problem is that the $10K that you may receive from the employer as Health Insurance benefit is technically not your money, nor part of your salary. Companies can get rid of that benefit without notice. :ballchain:

Now, if those $10K were transfer to me, and providing that the "STD Policy" is good enough, I don't see any reason why I should not use after tax money to improve my coverage.

Anyway, I can only hope Obama has a PnPG account and logs in from time to time :welcome:

Bearfoot_Adam
06-04-2009, 06:11 PM
Mr. Ken Just so you know as a born and raised Toledoan I would not take anything this paper prints too seriously. The Blade for many many years has been nothing more than a pompous rag that tries to control local politics, and makes itself out to be better then they truly are. But otherwise thanks for the links

MortonStromgal
06-04-2009, 06:24 PM
In my particular case, the cost of COBRA (Previous Employer) was $10K, cost for a High Deductible ($10K) Premium is $3K (2 Adults/2 Children).

I wouldn't mind making $10K a year more and be taxed for it, I would be able to pay $3K and deduct $7K/year if I deposit the difference in an HSA. This would definitely stimulate Prevention Care (which is actually "included" in the High Deductible Policy). After some years, I may stop contributing to the HSA and fund an IRA or a 529.


See this is the main problem with USA health care. Its not that it isn't good its that its unaffordable to a considerable percentage of the population. My wife had some serious medical issues through no fault of her own. My first bill alone $200,000... fortunately we had heath insurance so we were out about $20,000. Frankly I would have paid more, but while she received good care, one night in the hospital cost more than a night in the penthouse at the Hilton. Sweeden has lower costs, so I think thats where we need to focus, how can we lower costs without lowering care.

mrken
06-04-2009, 07:15 PM
Good posts guys. And good points.


In my particular case, the cost of COBRA (Previous Employer) was $10K, cost for a High Deductible ($10K) Premium is $3K (2 Adults/2 Children).

I wouldn't mind making $10K a year more and be taxed for it, I would be able to pay $3K and deduct $7K/year if I deposit the difference in an HSA. This would definitely stimulate Prevention Care (which is actually "included" in the High Deductible Policy). After some years, I may stop contributing to the HSA and fund an IRA or a 529.



One problem is that the $10K that you may receive from the employer as Health Insurance benefit is technically not your money, nor part of your salary. Companies can get rid of that benefit without notice. :ballchain:

Now, if those $10K were transfer to me, and providing that the "STD Policy" is good enough, I don't see any reason why I should not use after tax money to improve my coverage.

Anyway, I can only hope Obama has a PnPG account and logs in from time to time :welcome:

Dimthar, you are quoting COBRA coverage. As you found out it is the most expensive health care in the U.S. I too used it when I quit my job to do a start up and the next day my wife went into labor, five months early. Yeah, we took out COBRA for the eight months for me to get back into the employee line. It was WAY more than I expected. Now days as an employee, it is not only affordable but covers quite a bit. Though I will admit we now have higher Out of Pocket costs.

As for the employer giving the money they pay for the insurance to the employee, that would be a good deal for everyone. In the early days the employer got benefits for providing the insurance. And yes, they sometimes do get rid of insurance as a benefit. Personally speaking, I would prefer the companies get out of the insurance business and let the employee get their own insurance much like the insurance plan President Obama is proposing. But then I think the government shouldn't replace the private sector with itself. Our Constitution forbids this sort of thing.

The problem I think I see with your last proposal is the money may or may not be added to your check, but you will be taxes for the extra insurance. The initial figure I heard was 100%, but it was an initial percentage, it was expected to be much higher.

Unfortunately for the country, President Obama does not take advice from peons like us. We know nothing.



Mr. Ken Just so you know as a born and raised Toledoan I would not take anything this paper prints too seriously. The Blade for many many years has been nothing more than a pompous rag that tries to control local politics, and makes itself out to be better then they truly are. But otherwise thanks for the links


My apologies to you and anyone who knows the reputation of the paper. To me it was just one source among many. That is one reason I suggest one reads a lot and uses their own brains to gleen the truth from the chatter.

In just the time I was reading these links I found opposing views and conflicting statements. The truth is there, one just has to read, think, check, read more and check more. But thank you for pointing out something I could not know from reading just one article.



See this is the main problem with USA health care. Its not that it isn't good its that its unaffordable to a considerable percentage of the population. My wife had some serious medical issues through no fault of her own. My first bill alone $200,000... fortunately we had heath insurance so we were out about $20,000. Frankly I would have paid more, but while she received good care, one night in the hospital cost more than a night in the penthouse at the Hilton. Sweeden has lower costs, so I think thats where we need to focus, how can we lower costs without lowering care.


MSg, you hit the nail on the head with your observations. Yes, our costs are out of control. That's what happens when you have the best care. It is the best because cost does not control it. We just pay whatever it costs. Now if you couldn't afford it or didn't have insurance, well, then you don't get it. But when someone can walk across the border into the U.S. and go to a hospital, they too get the best health care in the world. Only problem is, the tax payers get to pay that bill. Same goes for some kid who chose to not get health care because it cost too much. We all know someone who would rather buy another pack of DnD minis and the newest module ;) than insurance. Nothing os going to happen to them. They are invincible. Just like I was when I was 25 and had no insurance for almost a year. Nothing happened.

Dang, did I just write a book? Sorry. I will try to refrain myself now. :redface:

Dimthar
06-04-2009, 09:14 PM
Dimthar, you are quoting COBRA coverage. As you found out it is the most expensive health care in the U.S..

I just Quoted COBRA because by definition, COBRA is the exact cost that the Employer+Employee pay for a given Health Insurance Policy. What happens is that when you leave a job, the employee has to add the employer % of the cost. For example when employed you pay $100 and the company pays $900 a month. If you quit, and want the same plan, you have to pay the $1000.


MSg, you hit the nail on the head with your observations. Yes, our costs are out of control. That's what happens when you have the best care.

I have my reservations on this comment. How would you interpret getting a bill from a Hospital for $1000 because the test was not covered by your insurance, after a little fighting they say, OK, we will charge you $500 which is what we normally charge to insurance companies that cover this test, and after that they give you an additional $100 discount for paying cash instead of installments. So you end paying $400 USD.

Did the service cost $400 and the Hospital was just trying to rip me off at the beginning??? Does best care cost $1000 or $400? And I don't believe the Hospital/Doctor did not get fair profit from my $400.

.

Bearfoot_Adam
06-04-2009, 09:28 PM
No apology needed. We have just been discussing the validity of sources and wanted to state my opinion on that particular source.

mrken
06-04-2009, 10:15 PM
I just Quoted COBRA because by definition, COBRA is the exact cost that the Employer+Employee pay for a given Health Insurance Policy. What happens is that when you leave a job, the employee has to add the employer % of the cost. For example when employed you pay $100 and the company pays $900 a month. If you quit, and want the same plan, you have to pay the $1000.

I have my reservations on this comment. How would you interpret getting a bill from a Hospital for $1000 because the test was not covered by your insurance, after a little fighting they say, OK, we will charge you $500 which is what we normally charge to insurance companies that cover this test, and after that they give you an additional $100 discount for paying cash instead of installments. So you end paying $400 USD.

Did the service cost $400 and the Hospital was just trying to rip me off at the beginning??? Does best care cost $1000 or $400? And I don't believe the Hospital/Doctor did not get fair profit from my $400..


Not quite right. It is true you have to pick up the employers portion of the bill when you go with COBRA, but because you no longer belong to a group you get hit with the extra charge. It is quite substantial. Not right, but large companies get a discount for large numbers of insured. Economy of scale sort of thing. This in my opinion should be dumped, just an excuse to jack the rates in my opinion.

And your bill for $1000 from the hospital. Someone has to pay for the uninsured the hospital has to treat by law. Otherwise the hospital will go out of business, like in California. You just fought the bill. You fight the bill enough and fairness and reality start to kick in.

You ever look at an itemized hospital claim? Tylenol, $1.50 each tablet. Doctor bills are just as bad. That is why billing coders are used. They see this stuff and deny the bill for more information and the hospital sends them more info and the insurance company can hold up the bill for months. Insurance companies use the money to earn interest. Then the hospital gets hit with Reasonable and Customary R and C.

That is the bureaucracy. Just wait until the federal government gets to be the bureaucracy. Currently the insured has governmental agencies to take complaints to if they feel wronged. Will be no complaining once the feds control health care. It will be take it or leave it, but shut up. At least it will be free. Unless you pay taxes, which will be over 50% of what you will be lucky to earn, if you have a job.

(Edited claim for bill. A claim is what the provider sends the insurance company. A bill is what the provider sends you.)

MortonStromgal
06-04-2009, 11:01 PM
I have my reservations on this comment. How would you interpret getting a bill from a Hospital for $1000 because the test was not covered by your insurance, after a little fighting they say, OK, we will charge you $500 which is what we normally charge to insurance companies that cover this test, and after that they give you an additional $100 discount for paying cash instead of installments. So you end paying $400 USD.

Did the service cost $400 and the Hospital was just trying to rip me off at the beginning??? Does best care cost $1000 or $400? And I don't believe the Hospital/Doctor did not get fair profit from my $400.


Pretty much what mrken said. The bill was $1000, now realize not all hospitals are non-profit and even non-profit hospitals still pay their staff pretty reasonable rates (most cases). That said a hospital will take whatever they can get, lets for argument sake say it was a for profit hospital and it actually costs $500. Thats $500 profit (reasonable by retail margins) and you said well im only paying you $400, they sold at a loss but if they can get one person or insurance company to pay $1000 then can have 4 more of you before they are only breaking even. Its like going to a restaurant the bill is not the cost but they are hoping to be able to pay all the staff at the end of the day. Thats why public hospitals still charge near the amount that private hospitals do. They get a TON of people who wont pay and the state picks up what the hospital cant get out of other clients.
I for one appreciate the service I get (and my wife being alive and mostly like she was before the whole ordeal) so while we are still making payments on our total bill, I plan to pay the whole thing. Also on one of the surgeries the doctors made a mistake and she may never recover fully. A portion of our friends and family wanted us to suit. We responded with how do you suit the people who saved your life and if we win we will be contributing to the rising medical costs.

Dimthar
06-05-2009, 10:13 AM
...and you said well im only paying you $400, they sold at a loss but if they can get one person or insurance company to pay $1000 then can have 4 more of you before they are only breaking even. .

The thing was, I did not offered to pay $400, I asked to be charged the same rate as the Insurance Companies. Because the $500 is what normally all Insurance Companies pay, that is why I assume there is profit in the $500 (perhaps not that much in $400).

But perhaps as you said, just because there is profit in that particularly test, it does not mean is enough to recoup the costs of servicing the uninsured.


Also on one of the surgeries the doctors made a mistake and she may never recover fully..

I'll pray for your wife MS. This is one of those topics where is hard to take a position.

Personally I believe all manufacturers/service providers are liable for the consequences of releasing a bad product/service. Now, Medicine is a Human performed service (not robots or machines), so the opportunities for mistakes are higher and unfortunately the severity is higher too, a Stylist only give you a Bad Haircut, a Doctor can leave you paralyzed.

Is true that any Lawsuit may increase the cost of Liability Premiums but is also true that the Insurance Company's business (who sold the liability) is Risk and is making profit, otherwise it would be like your house burning and not wanting compensation because other people premiums will rise.

But is the System being abused? How can you put a price to Human Life or Quality of Life (aka Caps on awards) ?

MortonStromgal
06-05-2009, 11:01 AM
I'll pray for your wife MS.


Thanks its been tough for her but shes coming to terms with it.



Is true that any Lawsuit may increase the cost of Liability Premiums but is also true that the Insurance Company's business (who sold the liability) is Risk and is making profit, otherwise it would be like your house burning and not wanting compensation because other people premiums will rise.


Well in her particular case, it would be more like the house was on fire because the heat & central air caught fire and the firemen came and put the fire out only they set there equipment down on the central air and it broke from the weight. The house is still usable and we still have heat but we have to use fans and open the windows in the summer. Now some people want us to suit the firemen

mrken
06-05-2009, 12:05 PM
The Caps on Liability are a good thing if used with compassion. I don't know how one can cash a $40M check when in their life they might never even get close to earning $1M. Some of the awards juries give are just plain stupid, vindictive maybe. But, to let someone maim another and not take care of them is criminal. But then, driving without auto insurance is criminal and we see it every day. One estimate I have heard is 50% of Colorado drivers have no auto insurance. And most every week we hear of a hit and run accident where someone was severely injured.

As for the $1000 bill. There is no way one insurance company would pay $1000 and another would pay $500. They all pretty much use the same Actuary Charts, R&C and pay pretty close to the same as every other insurance company. The big deciding point is the policy your company bought or Group and Plan provisions. While working for the company I was working for I knew they were getting out of the business when they sold off all the actuary data they had collected for nearly a century.

Dimthar
06-05-2009, 01:19 PM
As for the $1000 bill. There is no way one insurance company would pay $1000 and another would pay $500. They all pretty much use the same Actuary Charts, R&C and pay pretty close to the same as every other insurance company..

Perhaps did not explain it correctly, because MY Insurance did not cover that test, the Hospital charged me initially "Uninsured Price".