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View Full Version : Most threads on Pen and Paper Games are pointless; what reason would you give?



fmitchell
05-03-2009, 05:51 PM
Here's your chance to fess up: why are most threads on Pen and Paper Games these days unrelated to games, pens, or paper?

Sascha
05-03-2009, 06:00 PM
Lull in the action allows us to ponder the complexities of the universe. Time to send in the mooks~

Kaewin
05-03-2009, 07:22 PM
Because we just want to share thoughts with people who have simular intrests

mrken
05-03-2009, 08:07 PM
::Points finger at Thoth:: It's all his fault! Blame him! I am just an innocent bystander. Had nothing to do with it.

(vq)Am I safe yet?:laugh:

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
05-03-2009, 08:30 PM
::Points finger at Thoth:: It's all his fault! Blame him! I am just an innocent bystander. Had nothing to do with it.

(vq)Am I safe yet?:laugh:
Ouchee-wilikers! :eek:

I guess that's why Farcaster added General Chatter: This forum is for general topics not related to roleplaying, or topics not about any particular game or genre, option. :confused:

This thread allows me the freedom to participate in entertaining the P&PG members with even some pointless threads... pointless, but Fun, and Entertaining, threads. Thoth also promises more threads to come, some pointless, and some relevant to gaming.. :D

Come on now, who can honestly say that they didn't like my "In honor of Bart Simpson" thread? As with all of Thoth's threads, it's simply genius... Genius! :laugh:

Thoth takes bow and thanks the P&PG crowd for taking note of his service to the community. :cool:

Uh-oh, is Thoth going to do it? Yes he is. Here is Thoth's shameless plug for the entertainment of the community: http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/search.php?searchid=103100

Enjoy!

kirksmithicus
05-03-2009, 10:48 PM
Because that's just the way the internet works. If I were on a gardening forum I would start a thread about role-playing games.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
05-03-2009, 10:49 PM
If you did, then i might actually take interest in the gardening forum. At least until i read the one thread of interest: role-playing games. :D

GoddessGood
05-04-2009, 10:57 AM
I would say that's awfully subjective. They have points, just not necessarily the ones many people would be interested in. If nobody is interested, they sink to the back pages with the rest of the chaff. On the other hand, I signed on this morning and found that I had 5 pages of backthreads to go through from 48 hours of inactivity. That, imho, is a little excessive.

Edit: Apparently I responded to over a page of them, tho :o

Kaewin
05-04-2009, 11:35 AM
It gives us a chance to look at something that isn't everyday life

mrken
05-04-2009, 12:40 PM
Edit: Apparently I responded to over a page of them, tho :o


lol Yeah, me too.

Hey, I like some of these excessive and irrelevant threads. That is perhaps the best way for me to get to know those who respond. And if I don't have an interest to respond, I don't. It's just like the television or radio. I can turn them on and off as I please, or, turn the channel if I wish. I don't have to come to this site if I don't want to, but I do. And I don't have to read any of the threads if I don't want to, and I don't have to respond if I don't want. I have choices here.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
05-04-2009, 12:51 PM
i do too. Nothing wrong with interesting.

fmitchell
05-04-2009, 12:55 PM
Besides a satire/protest of recent threads, I started this thread because it seems to me that RPG and RPG discussions are simply stuck. (Exhibit A (http://www.warehouse23.com/info/newstuff.html)) You'd think that a recession would be a great time for cheap entertainment, but the RPG industry seems even more in the toilet than other businesses, and subjectively it seems like nobody's playing any games but D&D 4e.

Are computer games considered a more efficient use of time and money than dusting off an old game and gathering some people together?

Is D&D 4th Edition far more efficient at sucking up attention and consumer dollars than previous editions, without requiring as much of that taxing and dangerous quality called "imagination"?

Has everybody just given up?

Maybe we should change the focus of this board to something more popular, like knitting, movie reviews, or asking strangers intimate details of their lives?

mrken
05-04-2009, 12:58 PM
Yeah, what he said.

::one hand pats Thoth on the back while the other puts up bunny ears:: :D




While we are waiting on Thoth to come up with a more relevant poll, how about we have some fun here?

Sascha
05-04-2009, 03:55 PM
Because that's just the way the internet works. If I were on a gardening forum I would start a thread about role-playing games.
< begins work on the unholy fusion of the two ... a roleplaying game about a gardening forum~! mwahahahahahaha >


Besides a satire/protest of recent threads, I started this thread because it seems to me that RPG and RPG discussions are simply stuck. (Exhibit A (http://www.warehouse23.com/info/newstuff.html)) You'd think that a recession would be a great time for cheap entertainment, but the RPG industry seems even more in the toilet than other businesses, and subjectively it seems like nobody's playing any games but D&D 4e.

Are computer games considered a more efficient use of time and money than dusting off an old game and gathering some people together?
Selection bias at work, perhaps. Those posting aren't necessarily representative of even the total number of members ;) (I, for example, am currently participating in two non-4E games, one of which I post to ye olde blog here.)

As to video games, that's a solid description of the situation; video games are almost always available, and don't all require multiple players for success. Whether they have more value than tabletop games, well, that's rather subjective.


Is D&D 4th Edition far more efficient at sucking up attention and consumer dollars than previous editions, without requiring as much of that taxing and dangerous quality called "imagination"?

Has everybody just given up?
I'm not convinced 4E requires any less imagination than 3.x did ... or any other edition, for that matter. I kinda wish my current groups would give it at least a chance, 'cause I'm curious but don't want to pick up the books without using them :P Shame, that; the 4E bard looks like a lot of fun ^_^

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
05-04-2009, 05:19 PM
Yeah, what he said.

::one hand pats Thoth on the back while the other puts up bunny ears:: :D




While we are waiting on Thoth to come up with a more relevant poll, how about we have some fun here?
Ha! I can totally get a visual of this, mrken. Funny image. :laugh:

Btw, i posted up 4 more threads: 1 for honor, 1 for science, and 2 game-related and possibly useful in some way or another in everyones games. Thoth admits it, he can be quite thoughtful-cool. :cool:

Smilin' Jack
05-04-2009, 09:05 PM
Here's your chance to fess up: why are most threads on Pen and Paper Games these days unrelated to games, pens, or paper?

Dunno about anyone else; I'm looking for a date.

fmitchell
05-05-2009, 12:12 AM
Is D&D 4th Edition far more efficient at sucking up attention and consumer dollars than previous editions, without requiring as much of that taxing and dangerous quality called "imagination"?


I'm not convinced 4E requires any less imagination than 3.x did ... or any other edition, for that matter.

To justify that offhand comment: from various reviews, WotC's adventures seem to consist of combat after combat. At least 2/3* of the rules themselves are combat-related. Outside of combat, the only mechanical support comes from skill rolls, "skill challenges" (a way of structuring skill rolls), and "just roleplaying". Certainly you can use your imagination to create worlds, cultures, and interesting stories, as in any other RPG, but the system itself gives scant support, and I suspect a number of new players -- as many grognards of old -- will take "dungeon crawls" as the default and only mode of play.

To understand the notion of "mechanical support", see Traveller, RuneQuest/BRP/Call of Cthulhu, GURPS, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, World of Darkness, Spirit of the Century and other unknown and unimportant (i.e. not D&D) systems that give clear guidelines and easy affordances for sessions in which, perversely, killing things and taking their loot is not a primary goal.

* Looking at the three core books, roughly Chapters 4, 6, 7, and 9 of the PHB, or 219 of its 316 pages, are mostly if not exclusively combat-related: powers, feats, weapons, armor, magical items (mostly with combat bonuses or their own powers), and the combat rules themselves. (Arguably not all feats are combat-related, and not all equipment has uses in combat, but then again some skills have combat uses, and some of the remaining chapters include attack bonuses, racial combat abilities and powers, and the "core" mechanics which support both activities.) Chapters 3, 4, and 10 of the DMG (54 pages) mainly address combat, although Chapters 6 and 7 (33 pages) are partly about combat encounters and their XP awards, so let's split the difference and credit another 16 pages to combat. That's 70 of the DMG's 220 pages. On the other hand, all of the Monster Manual is stat blocks and monster tactics, so that's all of its 288 pages. (219 + 288 + 70)/(366 + 288 + 220) = 577/874 or roughly 2/3 of the page count. As WotC adds more Player Handbooks, Monster Manuals, Power splatbooks, and so forth, I expect that fraction will rise.

kirksmithicus
05-05-2009, 12:20 AM
Wow, way to be a ....

fmitchell
05-05-2009, 12:28 AM
Then again, according to at least one person in the "Old School D&D" movement, D&D hit the skids when they introduced the Thief class (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/10/i-still-dont-like-thieves.html).

BrotherDog
05-05-2009, 02:30 AM
Besides a satire/protest of recent threads, I started this thread because it seems to me that RPG and RPG discussions are simply stuck. (Exhibit A (http://www.warehouse23.com/info/newstuff.html)) You'd think that a recession would be a great time for cheap entertainment, but the RPG industry seems even more in the toilet than other businesses, and subjectively it seems like nobody's playing any games but D&D 4e.

Are computer games considered a more efficient use of time and money than dusting off an old game and gathering some people together?

Is D&D 4th Edition far more efficient at sucking up attention and consumer dollars than previous editions, without requiring as much of that taxing and dangerous quality called "imagination"?

Has everybody just given up?

Maybe we should change the focus of this board to something more popular, like knitting, movie reviews, or asking strangers intimate details of their lives?

First off. Huh?!?!?!?! Why would anyone play 4e? It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more expensive than WoW, and pretty much exactly the same thing. I'm not anti-change. One should change things for a real reason not just to distance veteran players and to remove Gary's influence. I'm sad to say, "I hope Hasbro loses their asses on this change." due to how badly they ignored customer furror about the announcement. they did it 7 years too early. They also ingored all the complaints about how they ruined the magazines, ruined the ForgottenRealms, and got rid of spells, skills and crafting in 4e. Again, one needs either stick with 3.5 or play WoW for those kind of elements. They just made D&D into a superhero munchkin game, that lacks all of D&D's charm. They deserve their pirating problems. They didn't just ask for them, they begged while genuflecting.

I am now hoping that they drop/sell TSR to Paizo. They'll do a much better job with it.

Sorry about the rant.

It's become more of an impossibilty to find players now. Most in my area still won't convert to 3/3.5e plus now the e-elitist snobbery of 4e. We need these threads to help cool off and heal from these hateful Hasbro/WotC jerk's stupidity and short-sighted greed.

Not singling anyone here out in any of that, by the way. ;;D

fmitchell
05-05-2009, 04:04 AM
First off. Huh?!?!?!?! Why would anyone play 4e?

Empirically, a whole horde of people do play it, especially in my area. Presumably they enjoy it, since forcing people to play your game through bribery or extortion lowers quarterly profits.

It seems, though, that whether you like 4e or not boils down to whether you like the shiny new combat system or not, because (as argued above) it's at least 2/3 of the rules-as-written. Some people think 4e combat is a way cool tactical movement and resource management challenge. Others, like me, think it's an annoying boardgame that brings the fun you were having a moment ago to a screeching halt, and forces you to choose among annoyingly similar options for the next hour or so before the promise of fun returns.

BrotherDog
05-05-2009, 04:35 AM
It seems, though, that whether you like 4e or not boils down to whether you like the shiny new combat system or not, because (as argued above) it's at least 2/3 of the rules-as-written. Some people think 4e combat is a way cool tactical movement and resource management challenge. Others, like me, think it's an annoying boardgame that brings the fun you were having a moment ago to a screeching halt, and forces you to choose among annoyingly similar options for the next hour or so before the promise of fun returns.

I wholeheartedly agree everything about that. Plus add how all the classes do exactly the same thing just using different words. I find it laggy, not faster in any way. But, then again I only played/play it on so called World D&D Day. I talways took forever to find all the "How, What, When, Where, and Why" of it.

It was just easier to say this than to go through and put in some the words I missed in my other post. Geez, the amount of difference a missing word or two makes.

;;D

Sascha
05-05-2009, 05:51 AM
It seems, though, that whether you like 4e or not boils down to whether you like the shiny new combat system or not, because (as argued above) it's at least 2/3 of the rules-as-written. Some people think 4e combat is a way cool tactical movement and resource management challenge. Others, like me, think it's an annoying boardgame that brings the fun you were having a moment ago to a screeching halt, and forces you to choose among annoyingly similar options for the next hour or so before the promise of fun returns.
Heh, those are basically my first thoughts on 3.x. Still feel that way, too, for the most part.

Really, this is the argument that should be made. Fun isn't empirical by any stretch of the word, and there are major variations in style even within a given game's rules. That your area isn't supportive of your preferred playstyle stinks. I empathize :)

mrken
05-05-2009, 07:57 AM
This, my friends is why we are talking about things other than role playing. The largest percentage of us still play DnD in on of it's many incarnations. The game has changed versions so many times it defines how old you are rather than which rule set is best. When boiled down, the game has not changed much really, just the packaging. Sure, some new ideas have been brought in over time with the new package, but it is still Tolkien to some degree. I for one am quite happy with my package, boiled down to the bones and presented to my players at no cost. Unlike my son who had to get in at some point and spent many hundreds of my dollars to get his place holder on versions with his three foot stack of rule books.

With all this back and forth some people for whatever reason get hot defending their version. It has seemed to me that we are defining ourselves by our version. Some find it a badge to be a 2.0 player, while some find the honor in 4.0. There are those who don't really care about which version is popular, they have fixed their version with their home rules and the game works perfectly for them and their group, why fix something not broken? Like why do I still have my old computer still set up? It works for me and costs me nothing more.

You can have your new shiney 4.0 if you want. It don't bother me any. And if you still want your 3.5, that's cool. and if you are one of those who like me found that 2.0 still works well, hey, I have to give you props because you most likely know what role playing is all about. It ain't the rules, they all gotta be fixed before they work well. TSR... err, I mean Wizards of the Coast can't get it right prior to release. They need us to find the bugs and suggest the fixes. And they need to take as long as possible to do this. Their jobs (read their existence) depends on the flavor of the week. If they ever got to the final best rules ever, poof, they would be gone. They have to bring out 6.0 and 21.23.01a to justify their existence. I don't begrudge them that, I would do the same if I was them. But, I don't have to get in on the latest and greatest because it is th latest and greatest. I have my version, thanks to TSR, and I am fine with it. Thank yo very much for the method of the most fun I get to have on a regular basis, and the spin offs that came from them.

This is why we talk about Thoth's polls. Because we got tired of defending our existence.

Grimwell
05-05-2009, 09:28 AM
You guys have your 4th edition in my off topic thread... it's not as good as a peanut butter cup. :mad:

ronpyatt
05-05-2009, 11:13 AM
It seems, though, that whether you like 4e or not boils down to whether you like the shiny new combat system or not, because (as argued above) it's at least 2/3 of the rules-as-written. Some people think 4e combat is a way cool tactical movement and resource management challenge. Others, like me, think it's an annoying boardgame that brings the fun you were having a moment ago to a screeching halt, and forces you to choose among annoyingly similar options for the next hour or so before the promise of fun returns.
This thread has brought up some very good points.

My group plays 4e with very little combat. We like the shinny new combat but employ it infrequently. However, we do play a lot of non-D&D games.

Since D&D is an odd nexus point where most gamers must cross to get to another game, it's not surprising to find so many 4e players (or even D&D players) wrapped up in one or more groups that are dominated by D&D, not so much because it's their individual game of choice but more the populous game of choice or lowest common denominator. I believe this was discussed in another thread where D&D was the default in terms of what most folks have played.

To address other points made on this thread...

This site is and has been about communication among gamers. I consider this site a resounding success in this regard, but a little tweaking of the forums is in order, now that we've grown as large as we have.

Innocuous threads, seemingly unrelated to gaming, are at once a pleasant distraction to some regular visitors and an annoyance to some infrequent participants. There are sections/forums that some folks never visit because they have no interest, and this is by design. This has the added side effect of leaving sections undiscovered by many members, which lessons the frequency of participation in those sections and makes it even less likely that a non-explorer might stumble upon it. The amount of time many folks can dedicate to reading posts can vary greatly, but for infrequent and regular visitors finding the gems they're looking for in so much broken stained glass can and has lead visitors to miss valuable threads/posts. This is the nature of forums. However, we should come up with creative ways to improve the odds of someone being able to find these gems. Farcaster has made great strides in this regard, and we should help him improve things.

For example...
The Campaign Invitations section, though very active, may be one of those infrequently visited sections due to the self devouring nature of its threads. This is a good thing, and it's how that section works. However, I think there is room for improvement. Since face-to-face games are generally regional, visitors must go to extra efforts to filter out non-local games. Maybe there is a way to automatically filter these or have regional campaign invites appear in local group sections. I should mention this in the Suggestions section of this site (if it has not already).

mrken
05-05-2009, 11:48 AM
When one goes to the Player Registry to find players or games they can filter out by miles. I only look for players five, ten or fifteen miles away. I could bump that up to twenty or thirty miles but I think that is quite a ways to drive in a metropolitan area where there are hundreds of players so close together.

MortonStromgal
05-05-2009, 01:11 PM
Here's your chance to fess up: why are most threads on Pen and Paper Games these days unrelated to games, pens, or paper?
Because its more fun to post non-gaming stuff. What irks me is when you oh say post What D&D topic shall I post about in the Fantasy section rather than the, oh I don't know put in in the D&D section? /rant off

meh :D

templeorder
05-05-2009, 10:30 PM
I use pencils... so i'm willing to see the "pen" of pen and paper go bye-bye! Seriously... some are pretty pointless, but in the interest of having fun with like-minded people why not? It is fun sometimes just to watch the responses and even participate, just to see how, well, for lack of a better way of saying it, "the mind of a gamer works". Like, participating in this thread...

Dimthar
05-07-2009, 05:17 PM
It is obvious that DnD makes the bulk of the players, you just need to see that its Forum beats the second place (number of threads) by almost 4 times.

I think the ability to sort by Edition was a great addition if you don't like to see unwanted threads.

----

As for why there's been to many "filler" threads in the General Chatter? Don't know. I hope it did not have anything to do with someone trying to "Raise Levels" and hope that Farcarster's decision to remove responses to threads as part of the XP had anything to do with it (Buhuhu! I Lost 2 Levels)

Now, personally, I've seen too many Famous Last Words, Where in the World is, Who took my cheese threads in other boards, that I agree that some of the recent threads just look like repetitions of what has been done in the decades that the internet has been around.

On the other hand, I have to admit that the threads from the "Mulsiphix Era" are still some of the most popular, and promoted discussion. Therefore if someone is trying to increase the number of topics available, discouraging his sincere efforts is not what we need.

---

So far even in PnPG in the most heated disagreements, I always felt that most users opinion was that we were one of the most tolerant and open boards, not prone to flame wars, with always a sincere constructive criticism.

I guess one question is if we need to do something to raise the level of the topics (although banal topics are certainly needed from time to time) and how we do it, keeping to our tradition!

----

BTW, did someone saw the movie Perfume "Story of a Murderer" (Patrick Suskind Novel?), I read the book long time ago and I wondered how they managed to reflect the intricacies of the "Sense of Smell".

As an example of what I mean, When you see Runway Project you get to see the dresses and give your opinion (Wife is Fan!!! eh!) but in Top Chef, you don't taste the $@#^$ food!!!! what is the deal!?

----
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--- Merged from Double Post ---


Since face-to-face games are generally regional, visitors must go to extra efforts to filter out non-local games. Maybe there is a way to automatically filter these or have regional campaign invites appear in local group sections. I should mention this in the Suggestions section of this site (if it has not already).

As for the extra-efforts, you only need to filter by "mile radius", of course you must log on to do it.

But taking your idea, this type of filter happens automatically when you are looking at the "Community Calendar". So to have it done on the Campaign Invitation seems plausible.

:)